Doc Help: Landsknecht Matchlock Pistol?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
That's a nice pic, you can really see how it's been constructed with the flat hand cut thread. The screw on my tang goes the other way,down into the wood,but it is a good bit later both in the style of the lock and the style of the butt and woodscrews were in use by then I believe. I need to look at more doglock pistols because I think they're the most contemporary,they seem to be the same style stock and fittings. I would expect the lock retaining screws to look similar to the pic though they may well be rusted into the stock so I could have a problem trying to get one out without causing any damage. It's difficult to say whether they're hand made just looking at the heads when you look at the quality they were able to achieve on the wheelocks from the same period. Thanks for the help. John. :thumbsup:
 
jet car willy said:
OK can't hurt to give it a try,apologies to anyone if I'm just re-hashing something that's been seen/discussed before but I think it's relevant to the thread and informative. It brings my personal tally of the 'late' matchlock lock to three now,the Swiss musket,the one from the Keith Neale collection, and this one. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7524[/quote]

That is an impressive collection of matchlocks.

Not to side track this thread but does the front and 3rd one look like possible blunderbusses(i)?
attachment.php

attachment.php

Finding early blunderbi is a pet project of mine.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wes/Tex said:
Wes/Tex said:
Wes/Tex said:
Karl, I"m sorry this has taken a while but I've had to do some serious digging through all my files in an attempt to find a Landsknecht armed with a pistol. Sadly, I've come up empty on a picture. The best pictures I've found were of the Battle of Pavia in February 1525 in which harquebusiers played a significant role in the Holy Roman Empire's defeat of the French. All firearms shown are shoulder or cheek fired harquebus type weapons in the hands of the 'Austrian' or 'German' troops. Most cavalry are armed with lances and swords and the majority of the infantry with spears, pikes or bill weapons. Only the German harguebusiers appear to armed with firearms.
Did have some luck with written descriptions though. These dealt with the Holy Roman Empire's provided troops to Henry VIII for his campaign in 1544. Found a lot of extraneous information about infantry and cavalry both and how both of the mercenary groups were armed. The infantry appear to have been armed much like the British of the day, swords, pikes,brown bills, bows, buckler, sallet and two-pronged iron stakes to resist cavalry charges. The cavalry, especially heavy cavalry, hired by Henry were 'German'Reiter(Ritter or 'Swarte Rutters') to the English, were armed with "boresperes and shorthandgonnes", by which it is thought this comment meant boar spears and pistols. What exactly these "shorthandgonnes" may have looked like is speculation at this point. I've found one matchlok pistol, a hand drawn item for the book of military weapons, but is a later style matchlock with the more conventional bar trigger, and not very convincing for the Landkencht era. For reference, "boresperes" are large, thick bladed, short spears descended from early German Jaegers as hand weapons usd to hunt wild boars. Most of the Landknecht infantry and cavalry Henry VIII hired, fought in more conventional English style with English style weaponry. Sorry no picture has come to light, still plodding along. Wes

Infantry type with harguebus... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Landsknecht_with_Kriegsmesser_1500's.jpg[/quote]
Landsknecht with harquebus...http://www.planetdiecast.com/hwdphotos/uploads/950/48/Landsknecht_with_gun.JPG
Two handed for horseback...https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJQWlzKvBmEuWXr3SNBQ6GPYdMNA2AXV0Nef5ggjU2nr7dtegP
pistol of a later era....http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f237/jetcarwilly/matchlockpistol019_zpsf8850e17.jpg
Landsknecht with harquebus...http://www.uwekistner.de/mediac/400_0/media/07_04_Landsknecht16JH.jpg
possible pistols of that era...http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/62/cc/8a/62cc8a39e51543bd3a90a5ec99735c68.jpg

Thank you. I cannot seem to open the last picture for some reason.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you look at his collection left to right you'll notice they're laid out in chronological order. Notice how the stocks morph over time to the flintlock style and yet they are all match or wheel or combination type locks. The one that interests me is right at the very end (late pattern lock and stock like my pistol). There looks to be a flaired muzzle (b/b?) about half way along. Cheers, John.
 
attachment.php


I would very much like to see pictures of the muzzles of the top and 3rd guns to see if they are actual blunderusses or just crowned muskets.
 
Yes I know Karl, frustratingly 'close but not close enough' I'd love to see some more detailed pics of his collection but it seems off the cards for the moment.
 
The brass/bronze dragon mouthed matchlock is really cool. I wish that I could see the muzzle to see if it is flared or not. Although it would be fanciful, that would be an interesting gun to base a matchlock pistol off of.

Part of the problem that I am having documenting early blunderbusses(i) (there is not even a real plural for the word) is that there are two distinct types of blunderbuss barrels:
1) A straight, smooth bore barrel with a distinct flare at the end to make loading easier and to make it a LOT more intimidating. These shoot basically the same as a modern "coach" shotgun with no choke.
2) The rarer type barrel that is even more rarely reproduced had a slight (maybe 1-5 degrees) flaring the whole length of the barrel then often a more flared muzzle. These would be loaded heavy, still only effective at close range, but have a shot pattern the size of a barn.

matchlock_pistol1.jpg
 
Well there's a lot of contradictory evidence and supposition and at the end of the day we can only go on what is either documented or surviving and try to reason it out. It's like the X files, 'the truth is out there' just have to keep looking. :confused:
 
matchlock002_zps2cc26366.jpg
[/URL][/img]
Got 'em out Robin,not as difficult as I'd thought thankfully as there was plenty of clearance in the wood,they're not as obviously hand made as the one you have but they look hand made to me,they definately haven't been turned up on a lathe. Thread pitch and shaft dia. does vary although they are very close,the shaft isn't right in the centre of the head and there are file marks on it.
matchlock003_zpsf5e02baf.jpg
[/URL][/img]
The spring is some kind of non ferrous,looks like brass(?) but could be bronze or some similar alloy
The serpent is pinned rather than clinched.
matchlock005_zps0605a9f1.jpg
[/URL][/img]
This is the woodwork,the trigger is pinned,no trigger plate.
matchlock001_zps0be88807.jpg
[/URL][/img]
Any thoughts?? Thanks, John
 
I have looked long and hard and I have to say, "Beats the hell out of me" :idunno:

Just out of curiosity, how far is the touch hole ahead of the breech plug?

(That man at the London Proof House will thread your ML barrel and fit a breech plug prior to proof if you are okay to pay his "hutting charge", so I guess when I say breech plug I am actually referring to your hutt) :haha:
 
Approx 5mm to the breech face from the touch hole,don't want to mess with the barrel as I'm not intending re?proofing/shooting the pistol until I know I'm not doing anything stupid. It's a real puzzle this thing, it's like playing a game of cluedo where no matter what evidence you gather 'the butler did it' . Brass sear lever spring?? who uses those apart from the Japanese? :idunno: Like I keep saying,I'm no expert, but the lock seems genuine enough to me and the whole thing has got age. I took the butt cap off, it's cast iron and it was full of rust,exactly what you'd expect,the threads on the wood screws are near as dammit parallel and covered in fine red rust. If it is Victorian it's got to be pre 1840/50 judging by the lock screws, they're not whitworth,and if the lock came from a musket why aren't they longer ? As I understand it the fashion for recreating arms and armour for decoration came in the later romantic era,nouveau rich fantasy castles belonging to industrialists influenced by people like Scott and Beardsley and Pugin etc. So were there civil war enthusiasts running around the countryside in the 1820's??...Help!!! :doh: :surrender:
 
jet car willy said:
The spring is some kind of non ferrous,looks like brass(?) but could be bronze or some similar alloy

Just a thought

It could be a beryllium Alloy if it is a replacement repair. I used it a lot in the 60’s for making springs.
It was supper easy to make springs with it. But breathing its dust, beryllium compounds are toxic



William Alexander
 
Thanks for the info!didn't know about that, pity the beryllium alloy still isn't around I'm on my third attempt on a main spring for a boxlock pocket pistol,keep getting the temper wrong and they keep failing on the bend :cursing: I suppose anything's a possibility with this matchlock I've got,...anybody got any ideas for how to test for beryllium ?? .... other than inhaling the fumes and dying that is.... :(
 
Well don't that there look much like the moving rendition of a matchlock I posted, much?
:rotf:
 
jet car willy said:
I'm on my third attempt on a main spring for a boxlock pocket pistol

There's some bod advertising spring making on the inside back cover of the MLAGB newsletter. I haven't tried him yet, you could go first, show us that the jolly old pioneering spirit still burns bright in the old country :thumbsup:
 
No, that's cheating, besides I've still got a length of spring steel stock and full oxyacetylene bottles to play with,lot more fun than paying somebody else,bound to get lucky eventually. :)
 
jet car willy said:
So were there civil war enthusiasts running around the countryside in the 1820's??...Help!!! :doh: :surrender:

I was down in the catacombs of the Royal Armouries when I saw a musquette barrel very similar to the one I had at home. I took a picture. So, what date are the stocks? My barrel was in a piece of worm wood in the same "Spanish" style but they said I had a 1640's barrel and a piece of firewood. Someone must have done the stock, is suspect them Victorians :wink:

leeds.jpg
 
Back
Top