Doc Help: Landsknecht Matchlock Pistol?

[Tinker2]

pity the beryllium alloy still isn't around

You can still get it, look on the internet.

What I said was I don’t use it anymore because it is toxic.
I do use things that are toxic just not that anymore, if you use it just be careful



William Alexander

 

[john wilson]

Yep, the butler did it again, according to the Royal Armouries the Victorians did mine in 1820, :hmm: think that's what's known as a bit of an anachronism? I've just proved mine was done by some Regency dandy who wasn't at all interested in decorating his house in classical William Kent style with gold plated cupids and rococo scrolls over the fireplace,nope,he was into the Jacobeans and boring brown stuff (bet he fitted in well to early 19th cent fashionable society). But the Victorians are the real culprits everybody knows they were around twenty years before Victoria actually sat on the throne. Not that I'm having a dig at the Royal Armouries or anyone in particular but it seems to me that the fallback position is 'if it doesn't fit blame the Victorians' Guilty until proven innocent it seems :bull:

 

[john wilson]

Oh right, slight misunderstanding there William,thought it had been banned in the interests of health and safety, like cocaine in Coca Cola and the Corvair Monza Turbo. :grin:

 

[robinghewitt]

'if it doesn't fit blame the Victorians' Guilty until proven innocent it seems :bull:

It isn't necessarily easy, for example the Mary Rose pattern musket. They had several in the Tower of London but nobody had a clue what or when they were until they started pulling them up from the wreck. Did they think they were Victorian? I certainly don't think they guessed Henrician.

 

[john wilson]

Yes I know, I'm being a little unkind and venting my frustration at my own experience really, I think what I find irksome is 'sweeping generality' and judging things in isolation without taking evolution into consideration. After all, artefacts can't speak and we don't have time machines so open mindedness and logical deduction are the only tools available in absence of solid evidence so as you point out, it's not easy. Apologies if I've offended anyone (again), seems I might be guilty of making sweeping generalisations about sweeping generalisations. :slap:

 

[ChrisPer]

:hatsoff:

 

[robinghewitt]

I think what I find irksome is 'sweeping generality' and judging things in isolation without taking evolution into consideration.

You have collectoritis, you want the best for your treasures, perfectly normal to go a bit deranged, don't sweat it.

I have probably mentioned the Durs Egg shotgun that is my current cause celebre. I admit it was probably made after he went blind, the doubters say it was made after he went dead. Not a problem, I still fight for it like you fight for your pistol.

I fought on one feature beneath the lock plates and one Egg quote from Colonel Hawker. Now a look alike shotgun has emerged by W Chance & Son, a name that dates it 1820-1830 which is right in the ballpark for Durs 1748-1831. I am resisting the urge to crow and trying to buy the look alike.

What you need is something to turn up and prove your case. I don't think you have a lot of hope but you never know :thumbsup:

 

[john wilson]

Right at this moment I'd settle for Durs Egg signing it before he was born, at least it'd be a signature that'd prove something. It's such an anomaly that it only makes sense if it's genuine (in the chronological sense). Even if it is a total one off built by a privateer gunsmith, if it was built at the time the style and fittings suggests then it is a European matchlock pistol. The matchlock pistol was a feature of other cultures so it wasn't beyond the whit of European gunmakers to give it a try even if it didn't prove to be a great idea. 'The exception doth prove the rule' an all that. I mentioned before about the tap action percussion pocket pistol I've got,never seen another, but it's here so it exists, that one is all signed and proofed so difficult to argue that that one isn't what it is, but you could correctly identify it as some Victorians' fantasy. What is it Holmes says?"Once you've eliminated the impossible, whatever is left,however improbable,must be the truth" :hmm: Pity he's dead, could have done with him. "Come Watson! the games afoot!".

 

[john wilson]

Just looking at the photo of the three matchlock muskets at the armoury and thinking about what you said about the stocks. The first lock looks a lot more comfortable in the earlier style stock. It seems,looking at the other two,as though stock design has advanced before lock design which would be strange as the former should be determined by the latter (after all what's a stock for but to give the best ergonomic design for the lock and barrel?). The locks in the two newer style stocks look as though they've been 'squeezed in' to the contours of a later design, a shorter lockplate or one with a similar sweeping profile to the wood would seem a more natural 'blend'. Just a general observation you understand, I'm no expert in how these things came about but there was a constant state of flux and transition as various weapons tried to meet the needs of the market so anything is possible I suppose?

 

[robinghewitt]

Oh dear, there you go again, thinking they would have tried to replace stocks sympathetically. That is a peculiarly modern idea.

An example:- They found a boxed set of woodwind instruments dating from the 16th century. An expert was called in who said, I will say that these are Rauchspfiefen because there is a similar instrument shown in the period wood engraving Maximillians' parade.

Wouldn't it be nice to play a Rauchspfiefe and find out what kind of noise it makes? The last surviving 300 year old set was sent to a clarinet maker to be put in playing condition. He carved clarinet mouth pieces on to the ancient wood and turned them in to clarinets.

If you ask a Victorian gun smith to restock a civil war musket you count yourself lucky if it doesn't come back as pinfire.

 

[john wilson]

:haha: Brilliant! Wouldn't the world be simpler if people did what they ought to instead of what they liked? I've been checking the App Store to see if they've got a radio carbon dating app for the iPhone,no joy there either. :idunno:

 

[robinghewitt]

I've been checking the App Store to see if they've got a radio carbon dating app for the iPhone,no joy there either. :idunno:

Typical collector fighting his corner, been there, done that. Next you will be counting the rings to see if you have enough for a dendrochronology date :rotf:

 

[john wilson]

Forty two. Bye the bye,... Those rauchespfieffen, if the old schoolboy Deutche is still up to scratch they were lucky they weren't fitted with filters ,it actually translates as smoking pipe! rauchen (to smoke) pfieffen (pipe, but you could go with piepen). It's no wonder the poor restorer put clarinet mouthpieces on 'em,if somebody had presented me with a box of dirty old pipes I'd have gone for the cheaper option of gaffa tape, a hacksaw and a box of tin whistles.....or I might have fitted 'em with matchlocks to keep Zonie happy. :rotf:

 

[robinghewitt]

if somebody had presented me with a box of dirty old pipes I'd have gone for the cheaper option

That's the spirit, stuff the history, have fun. The only reason for preserving an historic piece is if you want to sell it and reckon it is worth more the way it is.

Sorry , spelt it wrong, that's what happens when I pull things out of my tired old brain rather than off the internet. The word is rauschpfeife.

 

[john wilson]

Yep I agree wholeheartedly with those sentiments,I've got an old TR4A that I spent two years restoring that I regularly give a good thrash round these parts,it's got scratches and stone chips and the chrome isn't the best but I kept it that way so I can enjoy it. I never show it, the whole classic car show thing is about as anti my philosophy as it's possible to get and as you say it's all about money. I see people with mint over restored examples of the same car that they've spent fortunes having built for them and they spend all their time on trailers in centrally heated garages and under the polishing mitt. It's a nice sunny day today, might give the old girl a spin in a bit! :thumbsup:
The thing with the pistol is I find transitional pieces fascinating both from a historical and an engineering perspective and I consider it my reponsibility to make sure I do the right thing by it, after all we're all curators,no matter what people may believe we don't actually own anything,we're only looking after it for the next guy. Same as the guy who had it before me. If I thought that donating this to the museum that best lays claim to it would ensure it was on view permanently then I'd see that it was donated when I'm done. If I can't prove it is what it is then I have to leave it to the next guy to pick up the gauntlet. TR4A's are plentiful, you can do what you like with one of those there'll always be one to look at in a car collection somewhere. European matchlock pistols? If I was interested in money I'd strip the lock out of it,sell it separately and sell the stock on as a doglock. Unfortunately for the bank balance I'm not a vandal so that's never going to happen under my watch. :v

 

[john wilson]

Yay!!! Two thousand hits! Somebody must be finding this interesting. :thumbsup:

 

[Karl Helweg]

Over two thousand hits. I hope some people are finding this useful too.

I have not heard from Lars, the Landskencht reenactor in Denmark who started this question, in some time. Hopefully he is busy in his shop making something or another.

Lars Larsen

 

[john wilson]

Landsknecht in safety glasses,...... whatever happened to macho? I'm not a religious person but I do remember a bible passage which for some reason stuck in my brain ever since I was a child, it ends "and the meek shall inherit the earth" not sure where it's from but a quick google should find it,probably 'revelations' that's to do with predictions for the future isn't it? Anyway, seems they were right, the Meeks are everywhere waving fingers and stopping people having fun. They'll have rubber plugs on Viking helmets next "that horn is too sharp, you'll have somebody's eye out!" :nono:
Found something of interest regarding Landsknecht the other day actually, they used a very short matchlock harquebus,near as damn it a pistol, have a look, Lars may well find it interesting. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7518 Cheers, John.

 

[robinghewitt]

"and the meek shall inherit the earth" not sure where it's from but a quick google should find it,

I have ben testing my brain today, I remembered aspidistra and chaplets. So without Google I think this is one of the beatitudes.

 

[john wilson]

I had to cheat , Mathew 5:5, you're 100% right,beatitudes,sermon on the mount. Not quite sure what potted plants have to do with it though :haha: Can I borrow Ben? My brain needs testing too. :grin: