Does lead really wear out rifling by it's passage?

[M. De Land]

From what I can determine, lead actually reacts in it's passage through a bore more like lubricant than a cutting agent and when lube is added it is even less prone to barrel wear.
Linen (cotton) cloth patching has the effect of smoothing a bore of reaming and rifling abrasions. Paper patching is more abrasive but will work for many thousandsof rounds before accuracy suffers.
It was said in the chunk gun era that target rifles would shoot smooth, meaning the rifling was still sharp but a glaze would form and accuracy would suffer. The remedy was to clean with some vinegar and let stand a bit to rough up the polish or glaze that had formed. My guess is this may have been nothing more than carbon fouling which is often very hard to detect and even harder to remove.
Black powder pressure and temperature while combusting does not seem to erode rifling very much if any as can be seen in the breech area of muzzle loader or cartridge guns.
Having built and serviced many rifles and hand guns for a lot years I have concluded that lead bullets and black powder pressure simply do not wear out barrels but rather loading, wiping between shots and cleaning procedures are the real cause.

 

[ohio ramrod]

It is my personal belief that dirt embeded into wooden ramrods is a real killer on the rifling.Which is why I use a range rod with a bore protector to keep it centered on my target rifles . the hunting rifles don't get that many rounds shot through them to worry as long as you are careful when loading and cleaning.

 

[yonderin]

I can only observe that rocks are smoothed by the water in flowing water. However I really doubt the passage of lead through your barrel will have any noticeable effect in your lifetime. Regardless of how many times you fired in a day, nor for how many days. I might think patching could wear it faster, but again not to any great effect.

 

[hanshi]

The steel may not be the strongest but lead is ultra soft. I doubt anyone could live long enough to wear out a barrel with lead balls. Patches? I just don't know. The burning gasses from BP arms may have the ability to erode a barrel after many tens of thousands of shots; but all it would likely do is polish/smooth out the bore.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I dunno, but people have told me that they shot out the bore on their guns. Most damaging thing you can do is fire it. The plasma from the explosive/propellant does more to 'em than any amount of cleaning, My experience so far is that the more you shoot your gun, the better it gets.

 

[M. De Land]

I dunno, but people have told me that they shot out the bore on their guns. Most damaging thing you can do is fire it. The plasma from the explosive/propellant does more to 'em than any amount of cleaning, My experience so far is that the more you shoot your gun, the better it gets.

Smokeless powder does have a very obvious erosive action on barrel steel but having observed and re-barreled many smokeless guns as well as BP cartridge and muzzle loaders I can testify from experience that BP has very little if any erosive effect from combustion.
What surprised me was the non effect paper patching has on rifling. I have witnessed how fast paper can dull a knife or chisel edge and assumed would have the same effect on a barrel but literally thousands of rounds can be sent down bore of a BP cartridge rifle and all it does is smooth out the reaming marks with almost no enlargement of bore or groove nor rounding of land corners.
This was a big eye opener for me and I have no good explanation of why this is so, paper being nothing but refined wood fiber.
Many chunk guns had false muzzles that used a cross paper patch and it seems to have had the same non abrasive effect on the soft iron barrels used in many of them.

 

[chorizo]

Let's not conflate modern smokeless guns with throats with black powder muzzleloaders. Guns can be "shot out" via a variety of ways. Super hot load gasses eroding the throat and the bore is the greatest contributor. Much faster velocities on the bullets with much faster twist rates wearing out the lands, poor cleaning of the bore and the ever present wear on the crown at the muzzle.

The things in common that ML have with modern guns is poor cleaning practices corroding the bore (much more of an issue with ML as the powder is more corrosive) and the destruction of the crown at the muzzle.

The life of a modern smokeless rifle used in competition long range high performance are around 2000 rounds with sub MOA requirements to hunting 308 guns 5,000 to 7,000 with 2" moa expectations. This is assuming proper care.

I would expect our ML, with the modern steel, proper cleaning methods, not near as "hot" of loads and REDUCED expectation on accuracy to last 10's of thousands.

However, I have seen more modern rifles ruined by piss poor cleaning practices than I have ever seen by shooting.

https://www.rifletalks.com/equipment-reviews/rifles/rifle-barrel-life/

 

[ord sgt]

I knew an old timer (he has passed away) who would shoot all day long at rondyvous. He would start when the range opened and be there until closing. I asked him how many barrels he had worn out. His answer was....none. Same barrel that came with the rifle. The only change made was a thicker patch. This after many years of target shooting with one rifle.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

I'm lost my freshing rod in the move. Bummer

So far my 45 has well over 7000 rounds and it's still a track driver.

 

[Flintlock]

No, but it will sure loose accuracy and improper removal of the lead can eventually wear the barrel.

 

[#BPBReloadingFFL]

Shooting PRB just how does the lead foul the bore?

 

[NorthFork]

@M. De Land

You wrote- "but rather loading, wiping between shots and cleaning procedures are the real cause."

I agree 100%

 

[chorizo]

Pressure on a muzzleloader for example is proofed (a max pressure) at around 10,000 PSI operating pressures are likely around 6000 psi whereas a modern rifles generate 45,000 to 65,000 psi

 

[deerstalkert]

i spent some time in a Roman village in Portugal. built in 50 BC+/-.
the gates were 12 ft. high and each wing was 8 ft wide. they had a axel/pivot on the butt sides that was a smoothed log with a beveled end on top and a rounded end on the bottom that fit into a huge stone with a socket bored and filled with lead. the head of the pivot was fitted into a stone ring at the top with a poured lead bearing.
the current gates were estimated to be from AD 30+/-. the gates had lowered by 3/4 inch from wear on the pivots seated in the lead bearings, though the curator of the town thought it could have partially been also from wood drying.
wood on lead. almost 2k years. lead is a wonderful lubricant.
just rambling.

 

[M. De Land]

Let's not conflate modern smokeless guns with throats with black powder muzzleloaders. Guns can be "shot out" via a variety of ways. Super hot load gasses eroding the throat and the bore is the greatest contributor. Much faster velocities on the bullets with much faster twist rates wearing out the lands, poor cleaning of the bore and the ever present wear on the crown at the muzzle.

The things in common that ML have with modern guns is poor cleaning practices corroding the bore (much more of an issue with ML as the powder is more corrosive) and the destruction of the crown at the muzzle.

The life of a modern smokeless rifle used in competition long range high performance are around 2000 rounds with sub MOA requirements to hunting 308 guns 5,000 to 7,000 with 2" moa expectations. This is assuming proper care.

I would expect our ML, with the modern steel, proper cleaning methods, not near as "hot" of loads and REDUCED expectation on accuracy to last 10's of thousands.

However, I have seen more modern rifles ruined by piss poor cleaning practices than I have ever seen by shooting.

https://www.rifletalks.com/equipment-reviews/rifles/rifle-barrel-life/

I've built quite a few BP cartridge competition rifles for myself and others shooting both paper patch and grease grove bullets, some of them having multiple thousands of rounds shot through them in long and mid-range competition. I have never witnessed even one with a hint of an eroded throat. Same is true of the rifling ahead of a breech plug in a muzzle loader if properly cleaned.
Even in a modern rifle shooting a high intensity cartridge, if the barrel is set back and a new chamber cut into fresh barrel steel accuracy will be restored to nearly if not full original potential.
Even jacketed bullet do not substantially wear out rifling by their passage as copper is also a pretty good lubricant sliding over modern steel.
It's heat, pressure and poor cleaning that do the real damage in modern rifles with only poor cleaning methodology being the common denominator in muzzle loaders.
This is the reason I always use a down bore muzzle protector when loading, wiping or cleaning any muzzle loader. A wood rod should be used very sparingly when hunting and wiped off before each use with a good clean cloth.

 

[chorizo]

@M. De Land I concur with you in every respect. Well said.

When copper is an issue in accuracy it is like lead...build up. Remove the build up, accuracy restored.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Smokeless powder does have a very obvious erosive action on barrel steel but having observed and re-barreled many smokeless guns as well as BP cartridge and muzzle loaders I can testify from experience that BP has very little if any erosive effect from combustion.
What surprised me was the non effect paper patching has on rifling. I have witnessed how fast paper can dull a knife or chisel edge and assumed would have the same effect on a barrel but literally thousands of rounds can be sent down bore of a BP cartridge rifle and all it does is smooth out the reaming marks with almost no enlargement of bore or groove nor rounding of land corners.
This was a big eye opener for me and I have no good explanation of why this is so, paper being nothing but refined wood fiber.
Many chunk guns had false muzzles that used a cross paper patch and it seems to have had the same non abrasive effect on the soft iron barrels used in many of them.

Not to be a troll but chunk guns did not have loading muzzles or use paper patches, but slug rifles did.

 

[Stantheman86]

If you can afford to shoot enough to wear a muzzleloader or BP cartridge rifle barrel out, then you can afford new barrels or new guns.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

In the old days in the US makers of rifles and gunsmiths who catered to the hard-core target shooting crowd often opined that the gilt-edge accuracy of a barrel was lost after a certain number of shots when the bore became too smooth, and would address the issue by roughing it up a bit with some lapping compound. They of course charged the customer for this service. There is a certain amount of sense to it though as many today feel a patch lubricant can make things too slippery and negatively affect accuracy. I suppose I believe this as well. But ..I know of a number of shooters who over the years who won medals at Friendship with rifles that had original bores that were not re-worked or enhanced.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Shooting PRB just how does the lead foul the bore?

For all practical purposes... it doesn't.