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Drop at the Comb

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NuclearMeltdown

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I have, for the past year or so, been toying around with the idea of getting into muzzleloading. However, I have not found a rifle that fits me really well yet. I see many posts on here saying that the GPR is a great beginner's gun. However, when I shoulder one, I find myself staring at the tang and stock instead of looking though the sights. In other words, the stock has too much drop.

If I were to eventually opt for a semi-custom rifle (from TVM or similar), I will probably try to specify a stock without too much drop. However, the only way I have to measure how much is too much or too little for me is to compare with existing rifles. For instance, the stock on a Marlin Model 60 leaves my eye looking above the sights, while a GPR leaves me looking below them. However, a military Mauser stock or a few others fit me perfectly in that respect.

What I would like to know is, how can I specify what the right amount of drop is for me to a builder who is hundreds of miles away? Also, how does a cheekpiece's carved shape affect this, if at all?
 
If you can borrow a GPR and add some padding bit by bit till you are seeing what you should see would be a way to start. Also I don't know your experience but you may need some coaching from an old shooter. Gpr's fit most real good except for length of pull for some. My 2 cents.
 
I think some of the problem is that modern shooters learn to rely on the stock to position their heads when they shoot.
While there is no doubt that a rifle with little drop (like most of the modern style guns) will give the shooter no option other than to have their cheek firmly planted against the cheek piece just in order to get their eye aligned with the sights this is not the case when dealing with many Traditional style guns.

Take the Bedford rifle for instance.
Kent2.jpg

With it's 3 3/4 inch drop it is obvious that placing ones cheek against the stock was not the motivating force behind its design.
It is meant to bring the sights to the shooters eye when the butt is on the arm and while the shooters head is still in a fairly upright position. It does this very well by the way and is a joy to shoot.

Actually, I prefer the idea of not placing my cheek against the stock as a few of my guns which do require that sort of positioning often end up in giving my cheek bone a good bashing when I shoot heavy loads in them.

I would suggest that people should try positioning their heads so that their eyes align with the sights without relying on the stock to do the positioning for them. I think after trying it a few times they will come to like it.

zonie :)
 
I confess my "expertise" lies in shotgunning but I cannot in good conscience advocate poor form to compensate for poor design(from a purely functional perspective)as a best case scenario. The Bedford is of course an extreme designed with looks in mind as opposed function and one must alter to shoot such a stock.
 
Flip the mauser upside down on your dinning room table and rest it on it's sights. Then take a measurement from the comb to the table. Tell this measurement to the guy that's building your gun. I do it this way all the time.
 
Mike's method is easy and precise. If you are also happy with the drop at the heel, take that measurement as well, and give it too your custom builder. While maybe not as critical with a rifle, it sure is with a shotgun.
 
If you really fit a military stock, then by all means use its measurements when ordering another gun. Just check a few things, first. When you mount that gun to your shoulder, standing upright, are you looking through the middle of your glasses at the rear sight on the rifle, or out of a top corner, or edge? IF the latter, the stock does not fit you well: you have just learned to use it. The reason most people don't have custom fitted stocks on their rifles is that just learn to " Make do ". With a shotgun, fit is much more critical, and this is where we see shooters looking for a stockfitter.

Next, is your checkbone laying on top of the comb, or along side it? If the former, you are being hurt by the recoil. Some guys just learn to " take it " ( like a man!), but they are just fooling themselves if they think that recoil beating is NOT affecting their shooting scores.

Finally, after a shooting session where you fire 20 or more rounds of high power rifle cartridges, do you have a bruise on your arm, or shoulder or chest? If so, take a picture. if only the bottom of the buttstock is leaving a " U-shaped " mark on your pectorals, you can stand to have some wood removed from the Toe, or bottom part of the butt. This is PITCH. ( I call it Down pitch, because most shooters need to have a greater down pitch to allow their heads to look straight ahead, and still see both the rear and front sites, comfortably.

How to take the measurements of different stocks so you can compare those who feel better to you, to those that don't? Its rather straight forward, if not simple.

PITCH: is meaured by standing the rifle on its buttstock against a doorjam, or wall, so that the heel, or top of the stock at the butt is against the jam or wall. Somewhere around the rear sight, ( remove the scope and mount from such guns) the action or barrel will also touch the wall. The front sight- way out at the end of the barrel should stand out away from the wall or jam. Measure the distance from the Wall or doorjam, to the top of the fronts sight, and record that measurement. That is the amount of PITCH that rifle or shotgun has.

LENGTH OF PULL: This is the distance between the middle of the triger that fires the gun to the center of the buttplate. On most factory stocks, this will be in excess of 12 inches. Record that measurement as this is the gun's LOP.

DROP AT HEEL; AND DROP A COMB: The heel is the top of the butt. If you think if a gunstock standing against a wall, it sort of resembles the human foot and leg. The heel is against the wall, and the toe is away from it. The COMB is that portion of the top of the stock the starts behind the wrist of the stock. you measure the drop at comb at the forward most point of the comb.

To measure drop, use a straight edge( Yard stick, 1 x lumber, whatever you have that you can lay along the top of the barrel to extend back over the buttstock. Measure your DOC as the distance from this line represented by your straightedge to the top of the comb. Measure you DOH by measuring the distance from the straightedge to the top of the heel of the stock.

Those are the four measurements a stockmaker needs to make a stock that fits you. If he doesn't take your measurements himself, he is relying on your sole judgement as to what fits you. He will make the stock to the dimensions you give him. If you give him wrong measurments, its your fault that the stock does not fit. So do this right. Measure lots of stocks, shoot as many rifles and shotguns as you can, and ask experienced shooters, and particularly any that have custom stocks, or non factory stocks on their guns, to look at your stance and position to suggest any corrections that need to be made by you to shoot better. Many of them will have already gone through this process themselves and will be very sympathetic and helpful to you. There are no nicer groups of men than shooters.

One last item you need to know about, even if you may not be interested in it. That is " CAST ON " AND "CAST-OFF". Cast represent a bending or curve of the buttstock from the centerline of the forestock and barrel. Cast-on is where the stock is bent to the right, as you look down on the stock from above the gun, or towards the face of a LEFT-HANDED shooter. CAST OFF is where the stock is bent to the LEFT, away from the face of a right handed shooter. If you have a wide face or head, or have put on weight, CAST OFF can allow you to more naturally align your eye with the sights of the gun without crawling on top of the stock with your cheekbone to get there. Some stocks have rather high combs because the factory expects 99% of the shooters to put a scope on the rifle, and the extra height is needed to get the head high enough to look easily through the scope. The Marlin 22 rifle you speak about is that way. take its measurements just to know, and then try one with and without a scope sight. I think you will find that I am correct. The advent of scope sights has changed the stock dimensions of most modern made rifles. You need more drop at comb, and heel, and usually more down pitch on a ML rifle to have it mount properly to the pocket in your shoulder, next to your cheek to be fired. Down Pitch often can be used to rescue a stock with too high a comb so that a shooter can see his iron sights with that high comb. It all depends on how long a neck the shooter has, whether this can work or not.

As to Cast-Off, and Cast-On, the measurement is made at the butt, and is usually a fraction of an inch. I have 1/4" cast-On done to my Remington 870 LH pump shotgun because I have a full face, and that allows me to align the front sight quickly when I mount the gun to my shoulder. I stopped missing a lot of targets as soon as I had that work done. I have not had that kind of work done to any of my rifles, other than my Fowler, yet! I am wanting to get a replacement stock for my 12 ga. S x S CVA shotgun, and when I do, I will order it with Cast-On to fit me better.

Those are the needed measurements you want to give to a stock maker. And, you really need to know these measurements when you look at guns in the stores. Take a tape measure with you. The top of a glass covered case can provide the straight edge you need to measure DOH and DOC. just turn the gun upside down and lay it on the top of the table or counter, and measure from the glass up to the comb and heel. Every business has a doorway, and every door has a doorjam, so getting the pitch measurement on a gun is not difficult, either. Finally, the tape will easily give you the LOP.
 
What LOP (Length Of Pull) normally fits you best? If the LOP is too long your head will be too far back on the sloping comb, subsequently positioning your head down so low you'll have the problem you mentioned.

For example I'm tall with long arms (38" sleeve length) and a 14+3/4 - 15" LOP serves me best...I usually have the opposite problem from you which is that most stocks are so short for me that my head is right up behind the tang and I'm looking down on top of the barrel.
 
Thank you for all of the advice, especially the more detailed answers.

I, too, am tall with long arms...I'm 6'1" and weigh a hefty 145-150 lbs. I have favored a longer length of pull in the past. Mosin Nagants and Swiss K31 rifles are too short for me (but I shoot them anyway because they are interesting for other reasons). Most Mauser 98 pattern stocks have fit me pretty well in respect to comb drop, but I can't recall if the length of pull was correct there.

I am in Sweden (land of Mora knives and fine axes) right now doing student teaching, so measurements will have to wait until the end of November. I'll be near broke when I get back, so a rifle is waaay off in the future for me anyway. I will save this thread, though, so I have it handy whenever I can afford a rifle.

I live in Bedford County, so that rifle is of interest to me. However, I think the stock pattern has too much drop. I have never handled a Lancaster or similar pattern of stock, so I'm not sure how they would fit me.

I will probably want a close to-historically correct rifle, in flintlock, if I were to order a custom make. Some sort of generic Pennsylvania rifle pattern is what I will want. I don't want to order one in a particular pre-made pattern though, for fear that it might not fit me.

Keep the opinions coming, though, should you have anything else to add. Lots of good info here, as well as differing opinions.
 

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