Earily Flintlocks in America

[tg]

"I've seen a few people go balistic here when they found out their gun wasn't what it was advertised to be"


Do you mean to tell me that my douible barreled Chinese made exposed hammer "coach" cartridge shotgun is not correct for the new persona ( one of Cortez's troops who take on Montezuma} that I am planning on for next year?

 

[rich pierce]

I've seen a few people go balistic here when they found out their gun wasn't what it was advertised to be. :shake:

And generally it's the bearer of bad news that bears the brunt of it- not the maker.

 

[Okwaho]

Michael,surely sir, thou doth jest. Does this mean that I should not build a three quarter stock percussion dog lock Tennessee canoe gun? Gee,I was so looking forward to having the only one in my neighborhood.It would have looked so good with my "throwing hawk" with the curly poplar handle,"possible sack",18th century neck Bowie knife with the 15" blade and quilled scabbard,and the matching machine made 54"x12" sash and matching leg ties .Just think how dashing I would be with my brown all matching ensemble.I stand before you truly humbled. Alas!alas!
Tom Patton :bow:

 

[tg]

On a serious note, I would like to add that the banter contained in the last few post has been tounge in cheek and no malice or ridicule was intended towards anyone who bought first and asked or studided later,( unless a bad attitude and stubborn nature caused it to seem as such) we have all been there at one time or another, and for valid info on gun hisrory this forum is hard to beat if you really want to get some good solid, well researched info.

 

[Okwaho]

As much as it pains me to agree with my good friend,TG,he really is correct here. And the nice thing is that the information is varied so that many aspects of gun collecting,building, and study is generally presented in a serious{ well most of the time} and civil way.
Tom Patton

 

[rudy parnell]

I wonder if we could nail down the close of the period for the flintlock smoothbore? I am pretty sure that guns coming out of the Springfield Armory as late as 1863 were caplock and rifled[ later converted to cartridge or "trapdoor"]. That might signal an end to the period for all the smoothbores? I would also think that we could identify all smoothbore guns that were introduced onto the continent. Maybe I am just dreaming but I would have thought this not to be an impossible task? Perhaps some description and definition would be helpful, are we correct that there are 3 types of smoothbore...#1 Fowler #2 Musket # Rifle ? Lastly, it could be helpful to determine a smoothbore from a shotgun. Many thanks to everyone and much appreciation for your contribution.

 

[rudy parnell]

I guess that somewhere or another we will have to wrestle with questions concerning period correctness. Questions, I don't know a thing about. I read that the famous Hawkin Rifle builders continued to make a smoothbore on request. I don't think we'll get anywhere if we focus on the exception rather that the rule. And since we are going to have to start somewhere...maybe we should confine our search to manufactured arms...whatever that means. Probably, guns that were made on contract...a number of guns. Thanks again. These are just my thoughts...hope others will share. In particular, if you live in a foreign country...other than the U.S. maybe you could identify arms coming out of your expertise. Please.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I think starting with a time period may be the best solution. The pilgrims brought guns with them after all. 1620-1820 is a large area to cover, and perhaps 100's or 1,000's of different types of guns were imported and made in the colonies.

 

[rich pierce]

Indeed, the questions are so open ended that we need to focus on time period and place.

 

[rudy parnell]

I did not realize that the topic was indeed that complicated. I have also come to the conclusion that some people may be offended by such a direct and simple approach. Ignorance in this case is perhaps justified ? Somehow that doesn't seem right, however ...it is I, that has asked the question and I accept the consequences. I have learned that there is much to learn and for that I am grateful. I do appreciate hearing from my colleagues and hope that everyone will benefit.

 

[rudy parnell]

We have the dates and that is a starting point that we can agree on [ 1620 till 1820 ] and the place is America. If someone has a grip on 50 years then just name the general location and we'll be on a roll. If fifty years is too much then we could go for 10 years. Thanks for getting us started Mike. :hatsoff:

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have also come to the conclusion that some people may be offended by such a direct and simple approach. Ignorance in this case is perhaps justified ?

No one is offended in any way, but the subject is so incredibly vast that there have been VOLUMES written and published on the subject and there is just no way to discuss this on any scale on a message board. Everyone here is more than willing to share, they just don't know where to start with such a vast subject.
A good place to start may be what the french or english or dutch were exporting to the colonies at some given date.

 

[Mike Brooks]

OOOPSS we're posting at the same time it seems! :haha:

 

[rudy parnell]

Sorry about the collision on our posting. You are right about the subject width and about the intentions of our neighbors. I just saw a post where Zonie took pictures of a french trade gun found on the frontier of Wyoming that dated 1770. That do make for a pizza with more than three toppings! :shocked2: I just thought that if anybody could figure this out... it would be my distinquished colleagues here on "The Muzzleloader Forum". Again, this was all my undoing and I accept full credit for perhaps looking foolish. And if Mr.Pierce is listening I would want to be a #3 in his catalogue. Thanks Rich. :winking:

 

[rudy parnell]

Ah...ah what is a hand forged barrel? Just kidding. :bow:

 

[Puffer]

Gentlemen, I have been watching this thread & I have observed some items put forth, that I ???
1. The "NW Gun" was NOT orig. HBC , NOR was it NWC, but was a term for guns being sent out W / the Traders from Montrialinto, the then area called the "NW" Ca. 1750 + (the Great Lakes region) They were of Brit mfg. & chaeply made.This "type of gun, later, was IDed w / NWC.(some of the Mfg.s were Wheeler, Grice,Barrnet & Ketland.( earliest known is a 1780 Grice, W / a "FOX in a CIRCLE)

2. HBC early Trade guns were made by Wilson. (1760s )But the earliest example we have of a NW style supplied by HBC, dates to 1820.ALL other surviving HBC guns are MILITARY (Besses etc. & FOWLERS.)

3.BRITISH guns WERE NOT ALL French desendents.

4. The early trade guns of the pattern of the Nationality of the traders, if Dutch, the Dutch etc.
2 of the few sources I use are,
Chas. Hanson Jr.s 2 books ( The Northwest Gun & The Plains Rifle). Most of my sources are from HBC archives & other Inst. archives.

Puffer

 

[Mike Brooks]

3.BRITISH guns WERE NOT ALL French desendents.

British gun archetecture was copied from French styles in general.. Any british fowling piece was the same in style archetecturally as french fowlers 20 to 30 years previously.

 

[rich pierce]

Suggestion- as this topic is hard for this old man to follow. Could we start over with more specific topics? I'll make a post about the Dutch.

 

[Puffer]

3.BRITISH guns WERE NOT ALL French desendents.

British gun archetecture was copied from French styles in general.. Any british fowling piece was the same in style archetecturally as french fowlers 20 to 30 years previously.

Mike, that is an interesting observation. I would like to learn more. Do you have some areas I can go to research this ??

Also how about the German & Belgum influence ??

Puffer

 

[Mike Brooks]

Get the book by Torsten Link "The flintlock, it's origin and development." I gfot my copy from ebay for about $17.