Earily Flintlocks in America

[tg]

" The "NW Gun" was NOT orig. HBC , NOR was it NWC"

many of the early references to the NW gun and the large Bow, and other clues to the evolution of the NW gun to its more recognizable 1790 and later period are from HBC records, see "Indian Trade Guns" it is a compilation of many researchers including Hanson, Hamilton and several others

 

[Okwaho]

his has been a very interesting thread and on the subject of NW guns I would suggest that you check this forum{smoothbore},and the thread, "what constitutes a PC smoothbore" and see my post dated 11/21/05 No. 194866 where I discussed early NW guns and their relationship to and possible evolution from the early HBC guns.I also suggested the latest research and information on HBC guns which includes material on NW guns is contained in a book by S.James Gooding,"Trade Guns Of The Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1970" {2003}I noted that there is an approximately 67 year gap between the HBC guns based on the founding of the HBC in 1674 and the earliest probable NW gun that I have been able to locate and which can likely be safely dated to the Ca.1740's period. To add to my post I would note that the French surrendered Canada in 1760 with the Treaty of Paris being signed in 1763.This means that following the surrender of Canada there was a period during which the NW guns which had previously been limited to the trading area controlled by the British through the HBC, became more plentiful in the remainder of British owned Canada.Excluded,of course, was the Mississippi Valley area retained by the French which would later become the Louisiana Purchase.
It is not my intention to demean T.M.Hamilton or Charles E. Hanson[url] Jr.in[/url] their research and writings but, as in all historical matters, research should be an ongoing necessity in formulating opinions concerning the guns in question.Mike has suggested Torsten Lenk's monumental work,"The Flintlock,It's Origin and Development"{1939,translated 1965}and he is correct.This is truly the bible for the origin and development of the flintlock.Dr.Lenk was for many years the Director of the Swedish Royal Armory and his book illustrates many fine guns lost in WW II. While most of the guns illustrated are high art guns such as were illustrated by Joe Kindig[url] Jr.in[/url] his monumental work on Kentucky rifles,it is well to remember that in looking at these fine guns one must look beyond the ornate decorations and look at the architecture.As in the old rhyme,"For Rosie O'Grady and the colonel's lady are sisters under the skin",one must look beyond the whistles and bells.
Tom Patton

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've enjoyed reading this thread and I do appreciate all the research that has gone into this discussion.
I think we go a bit overboard on PCness when we begin arguing the earliest date for some small detail. Hell, this discussion has demonstrated that we can't even agree on a date for percussion ignition yet we try to place a specific date on the "introduction" of a certain trigger guard finial or the exact placement of ramrod thimbles.
Even the most knowledgeable among us has to base that knowledge on but a very few surviving examples, a small fraction of one percent of guns made, and often the exact date and place of manufacture is not know but "attributed" based on the very details in question. That is a "self-proving" rule. All guns from that place and time look exactly like this because all guns which look like this are attributed to that place and time.
The survival rate of early Colonial firearms is so low that we are fortunate to have a general idea as to style and we really have no idea as to what was "typical" of that time or place because we have such a small sample. It would be like conducting a survey of five people and concluding that their answers are typical of 21st century Americans. :yakyak:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Jeez Tom good to hear from you again. :bow: I thought maybe some sireens had got ahold of you and lead you down the path of immorality.... :redface:

I stay as far away from them sireens as I can.

We have little to go on as far as surviving examples of pre 1750's guns go. But, when you get down to it, annal little details on surviving examples and dug pieces are the only things we have to date these guns. The devil is in the details! :winking:
Also, when you look at this realistically on a board like this you have maybe a 1/2 dozen odd fellows that think any of this actually matters, the rest just want to carry something that "look cool", shoot and run around the woods in funny old time clothes, and be happy with that. Nothing wrong with any of that. It takes all kinds to make the world go round. :v

 

[gof]

ok.... i am being anal



:winking:

 

[tg]

I have not looked at this particular topic/thread as any kind of arguement but people sharing different views and sources to establish the history and evolution of a type of gun, if this kind of think don't turn yer crank that's fine but there are some who enjoy studying these old guns. the evolution of the serpentine sideplate which is a part of the NW guns "trademark" attributes could take a thread of its own if folks wanted to go there.

 

[WRussell]

Lenk's book is kind of heavy going to wade through, but definitely worth having if you're interested in the roots of the flintlock.

Some folks would say he was a little wound up in the "Frenchlock", since other folks may have come up with the one piece frizzen/pan cover, which some see as the defining feature of the flintlock. The French were being encouraged to invent at the time the flintlock was evolving and came up with some important developments, like the vertically acting sear.

Anyhow, you can usually do better price wise on the used book links, like[url] http://dogbert.abebooks.com/[/url]
and Lenk's book is, as I said, heavy sledding, partly because you can't look at an illustration and find the text that goes with it. To force myself to plow through it, I made a cross-reference, listing all the illustrations and the pages in the text where they are mentioned. If anyone wants the file, email me.

 

[rudy parnell]

Tried to find the book written by Torsten Link,"Flintlock,it's origin and development". I couldn't find it, but I did find something. ISBN is the abbreviation for International Standard Book Number. It is a ten digit or thirteen digit number punched into a barcode that specifically identifies every book, even a particular edition of a title. I'm sure surprized to learn this. I am just starting to turn the cover on "The Cultural Life of the American Colonies [1607-1763]", by Louis B. Wright. It was written in 1899, I believe and the book I have was published in 1957. Anyway, sure enough it has a barcode sticker on the outside cover with the number 5050-9100-029-052-5. I simply point to this new method of identification that might be helpful. And lastly, when you get a chance would you please direct me to the next time and place, that I might encounter you and "Sirens". I want to go swiming , get wet, shoot, run in the woods,look cool, then " Dress-Up and Be Happy"!

 

Yeah but ya might wind up turned into a frog.

 

[rudy parnell]

Rib at...Rib at , that err snakebit! :rotf: :thumbsup:

 

[WRussell]

Here's 30 of them, starting at $45.00[url] http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=lenk&y=7&tn=flintlock&x=62[/url]

 

[Puffer]

there are some who enjoy studying these old guns. the evolution of the serpentine sideplate which is a part of the NW guns "trademark" attributes could take a thread of its own if folks wanted to go there.

HERER's 2 good resourses to start with :
1.The Northwest Gun. by Charles E Hanson Jr. - Nebraska state Historical Society (pub) 1981 ed.[url] 2.www.lesinger.com/jbp/tgun2.html[/url]

Puffer

 

[mmahlock]

Gentlemen, I have been watching this thread & I have observed some items put forth, that I ???
1. The "NW Gun" was NOT orig. HBC , NOR was it NWC, but was a term for guns being sent out W / the Traders from Montrialinto, the then area called the "NW" Ca. 1750 + (the Great Lakes region) They were of Brit mfg. & chaeply made.This "type of gun, later, was IDed w / NWC.(some of the Mfg.s were Wheeler, Grice,Barrnet & Ketland.( earliest known is a 1780 Grice, W / a "FOX in a CIRCLE)

2. HBC early Trade guns were made by Wilson. (1760s )But the earliest example we have of a NW style supplied by HBC, dates to 1820.ALL other surviving HBC guns are MILITARY (Besses etc. & FOWLERS.)

3.BRITISH guns WERE NOT ALL French desendents.

4. The early trade guns of the pattern of the Nationality of the traders, if Dutch, the Dutch etc.
2 of the few sources I use are,
Chas. Hanson Jr.s 2 books ( The Northwest Gun & The Plains Rifle). Most of my sources are from HBC archives & other Inst. archives.

Puffer

Trade Guns are not my forte but, In S. James Godding's book Trade Guns of the Hdson's Bay Comapny 1670-1970, he states in Chapter 4 that the armourer at York Factory requested bits and tools "the same as NW barrels ... NW Guns" in 1761. He also includes a photo of a HBC Trade Gun built between 1741 and 1745. Given that the HBC was selling or trading guns from almost the beginning, what constitutes a NW Trade Gun?

Lock design?
Stock design?
Barrel design?
Trigger design?
Side Plate?

 

[tg]

Those are the magic questions, at some time before 1761 there was a specific type of gun called a NW gun, there was also a type of gun in 1820 called a NW gun I think the idea is to try and trace the evolution and the similarities of the early NW gun and the differences.

 

[rudy parnell]

Thanks, and I was finally able to locate the book. The site you have suggested was very helpful. I also found that Dr. George Shumway has a website run by his family and there also, can be found many interesting books and items. :hatsoff:

 

[rudy parnell]

The web address is[WWW.shumwaypublisher.com].They offer a book on Flintlock Fowlers that features pictures of 150 different guns. I have to admit that, it is a bit pricey for me. I am presently restricted to what is available in the county run library.Dr. Shumway has written a book about the Carolina Longrifle and I will have to read it in the "Carolina Room" in downtown Gastonia. Because, you cannot check it out on general distribution to a local library. Thats ok, I'll drive over there and read it. Might even take my digital camera along and make a picture...if they allow it. In most places that have historical items of significance you cannot photograph...I am told. Something about the flash eroding the antiquity.Speaking of antiquity, it seems that this thread has run its' course. Therefore, I would like to thank everyone that contributed...especially Rich Pierce that actually tackled the Dutch Guns. Also, everyone that viewed the topic. Many Thanks...oh!,there is still plenty of time to jump in with a ten year period or more ...just post it as Mister Rich Pierce has done.