Eastern center seam moccasins..sort of

[Joe Yanta]

Thanks J.D. I never claimed to PC. I have tried for several years to make a pair of mocs according to various instructions and have never succeeded. I kept trimming and sewing and starting over until I found something that worked for me, at least stay on my feet and look halfway decent.

Thanks for posting a link for those who are looking for PC.

Joe

 

[J.D.]

I'm not knocking your pattern, or your handi work, just offering what, IMHO, is an easier, less labor intensive, alternative for making a pair of mocs.

IMHO, PC is only a part of the equation. While your pattern works, the original design was made to be quickly and easily made, with a minimum of time and materials.

This style is real easy to fit, too. Once the seam is sewn up the instep, all that is needed to fit one's foot is to crimp, clamp, or otherwise, reduce the length of the leather at the heal by sewing one single seam.

I have a pair of double sole mocs, made of moose hide, from this pattern. They are bullet proof, comfortable, and even PC. And they didn't take all day to make.

God bless,
J.D.

 

[crockett]

Joe or anyone: do you know if the way you stitched them is pc? I did a sheath with a center seam that way and showed it to Sean and he asked me about any doc on the stitching- I never thought about it, I just assumed the "X" type stitching was pc.

 

[Joe Yanta]

Crockett I'm not sure :hmm: my thoughts are there are many ways in which an awl and thread can be used to join to pieces of leather or fabric together. Concidering the many different individuals, all the different locations, colonies, settlements, tribes, NDN's and colonists. I would think there would be more than one way stitching and lacing was utilized.

:2
Joe

 

[Hawken12]

I do like the design ,of the start of the toe,gotta try that ,but my centreline mocs have the stitches underneath,was leary of that ,as to the comfort,but you don't feel them at all,(between the toes I suspect,actually I know from the wear on the bottom)I used an overhand stitch which allows for you to but the edges together ,for a smooth seam,damned near waterproof too.I made a pair of summer mocs and a pair of winter ones,wear5 the summer ones inside and I do cheat with liners from a pair of winter boots I had ( same as winter liners for rubber boots),better than the rubber boots,I swear

 

[J.D.]

I haven't seen anything in museums, or in photos of originals, with the "X" stitching. IMHO, the problem with the "X" stitch is that the threads are exposed to cuts and abrasions in use. That additional wear would certainly lead to premature failure of the item...usually at the most inopportune time.

Most white made items are usually sewn with either a running stitch, back stitch, a saddle/lock stitch, or a gathering stitch, depending on the item, the material it is made of, i.e. cloth vs leather, and the use the item will see, i.e. harness, vs mocs.

Not sure about NDN made items, but I would suspect that running stitch and gathering stitch were probably most common.

God Bless,
J.D.

 

[Texasrick]

I'm glad I waited a while to reply to this thread....the discussion didn't go were I thought it was headed.

When JD first brought up the idea that the pattern on these mocs was not "authentic", I brissled. I have had many "conflicts" over the years with those who were hung up on the PC idea and demand that every item in use, down to the color of the dirt on your shirt, had to be researched and "proven" to be from the time period.

I certainly think it is important to use materials and methods that are appropriate to the time being recreated.....and "style" does play a part (no I don't think blue jeans are Ok just because similar material was available in 1770, nor is a percussion rifle correct for that time).

However, I feel there can be, and probably was at the time, a certain amount of variation in the exact way things were done.....sometimes a different "style".

This discussion of moccasins is a prime example of what I mean. He was attepting to make a basic center-seam moccasin, but didn't like some of the design (like the seam under the toe)and therefor "modified" the pattern to something that worked for him. He also stitched the mocs in a way that seemed good to his eye. I have no problem with that as I feel positive just such a thing happened from time to time in 1750.

The problem I have is when some "expert" proceeds to tell me that the finished moccasins are "wrong" because there is no example of that exact style and stitch pattern in his research.

JD, I thought that's where you were going......and I am glad I waited to hear you out. Instead of "preaching", you stated that even though you knew of no examples matching those moccasins and then proceeded to explain why the "traditional" pattern was faster and easier to make and the more common stitch pattern was more durable.

I could picture in my mind two longhunters meeting in the wilderness. One would have mentioned the moccasins which were unlike any he'd seen before. As they sat around the fire the discussion was about different ways to make moccasins and what worked best....and why (there usually IS a reason things were done the way they were).

I appeciate that approach and I'm always willing to learn. What I can't stand is someone telling me I'm not Politically Correct just because I didn't do things the "traditional" way and added my own style.....without any explanation about why that style wouldn't have been used (other than the fact that no examples exist today).

JD, we need more like you in this game.....thank you.

 

[Black Hand]

I appeciate that approach and I'm always willing to learn. What I can't stand is someone telling me I'm not Politically Correct just because I didn't do things the "traditional" way and added my own style.....without any explanation about why that style wouldn't have been used (other than the fact that no examples exist today).

The point is that you are trying to do it the way it WAS done. Rather than re-invent the wheel (the hard way in most cases) why not do a little research and find the correct way to do something. These designs evolved over the period of 10,000 or so years, so they do work. But in the end, there are only a couple of period-correct ways to make center-seam moccasins. Why not try one of those...And as an aside, if it isn't documented, then it may as well have never existed.

You do what you want to do, but in the end there is a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way is easy- you do whatever you want. The right way takes time and effort to learn. If you don't care about PC/HC then it doesn't matter at all. But if you try to pass it off as PC/HC, people will call you on it. Listen to them instead of scoffing, you'll learn more with your ears open and your mouth closed......

 

[Canerod]

Joe,
The pattern came in today. Now I just need to get some leather in and get a pair made.

Thanks for taking the time to make up the pattern and send it out.

 

[fort fireman]

Thanks for sending the patern out. I got it yesterday . Thanks a bunch ,Andy

 

[Joe Yanta]

Glad you fellas got it ok. I was hoping the way I was mailing them out would work for the U.S. Post Office. I can it ready for mailing quickly and cheaply that way.

If you have any questions just hollar. :hatsoff:

Joe

 

[Trkdriver99]

Joe,
Thank You I got my pattern. Now if I can find time to make them.
Ronnie