effective range

[Crow-Feather]

If a good team of beaters push the birds at a moderate pace shooting driven pheasant with a muzzle loader is truly living the past , to do it justice it is best when two shooters are too one stand [peg]with one shooting while the other loads then change after each shot. Always remember one bird killed with a muzzle loading shotgun is better than 10 with a modern over and under You really have too concentrate on each shot which hopefully ends with a kill which you remember for many years too come
FeltwadView attachment 67902

First time I looked at it, I thought the target was a jet plane. I figured you were a mite short.

 

[Britsmoothy]

How much was velocity increased? I assumed the black powder shotguns could achieve 1300 FPS? Your not gaining anything past that and the added pressure widens the patterns.
Choke came to be used around 1880? I remember that Greener claimed the invention but there was a Fowler in the US using it long before. I think it was simultaneously invented.
Actually other than Turkey, the vast majority of upland hunters would be better off without choke. Here in the USA many have illogical ideas regarding shotgun performance. I assume the average shooter would be the criteria for this.

I am ignorant of muzzle loaders only. I’ve studied internal shotgun ballistics for many years...not that I remember much of it.

Why does the cartridge increase velocity over the muzzle loader? Was it a better seal?

BTW I’ve always want to shoot driven birds. I did get measurements for an English SxS but went another avenue.

There are a couple of major factors.
The centerfire and or pinfire cartridge seals the breach. The vent of a caplock or flintlock loses some pressure.
The ignition and in built resistance of the cartridge case closure and the forcing cone cause a more complete burn and steeper pressure curves. Efficiency is increased. In a muzzleloader everything starts to move together with less resistance (why I believe in fine powders) and thus a flatter pressure curve.
Often with a cartridge wads are slightly larger than the bore. Aiding pressure development. A muzzleloaders wads have already been sized or ridden the bore.
Regarding chokes I have my own theory. They or the development of them was not at first to increase range but rather to manage the deteriorated pattern that the then new black powder charged cartridges were causing. However I have no proof of that!

 

[Kmcmichael]

Caveat, my muzzle loader knowledge is Zero.
I would not think that the vent would lose any more pressure than a gas operation modern gun, which has no discernible effect
i think the wad effectively allowed a shotgun to shoot more pellets with less deformation. I have never experienced a donut when patterning buteffect but faster spread of increase pressure was obvious. Particularly with buckshot.

 

[Kmcmichael]

That is surprising. I assumed muzzle loaders ceased production before the era of the shotgun choke.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Caveat, my muzzle loader knowledge is Zero.
I would not think that the vent would lose any more pressure than a gas operation modern gun, which has no discernible effect
i think the wad effectively allowed a shotgun to shoot more pellets with less deformation. I have never experienced a donut when patterning buteffect but faster spread of increase pressure was obvious. Particularly with buckshot.

I was not referring to plastic wads.
Original wads in black powder shotgun cartridges were not plastic. The period when chokes were being developed.
Note, a muzzleloader is vented at the breach of which is where peak pressure exists. The vents on a modern gas auto shotgun is far away from the breach and peak pressure!

 

[Kmcmichael]

Yes, thanks. I should have remembered the location of the vents.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

All this talk about choke on M/L's. The Colonel (Peter Hawker) talks of shooting Hares at 70 yds with No. 4 shot from his flint gun, most likely bored Tight behind then cylinder and Opened forward for the last 1/4 of it's length to relieve the pressure on the shot. Written soon after the Peninsular war. OLD DOG..

 

[GREENSWLDE]

As for wadding being sized by pushing it down the barrel, what about the 2 tons smacking it up the __se. Causes considerable obtruation (swelling) to seal the tube with a load of shot trying to stop it. OLD DOG..

 

[Newtire]

Yes and no....smokeless has increased velocity compared to a muzzleloader. The shotgun cartridge with black powder alone can show higher velocity than a muzzleloader. Does that mean it is better? Not necessarily but it can with the addition of choke make for an increase in range,

Sure. Some of my originals are choked and several of my customs are jugged or otherwise traditionally choked. Many are not and are mostly useless against high fliers and to my point, unless youre using a factory ML with modern Full+ chokes you‘re limited to 35-40y. Mostly.

Interesting topic.

 

[Historian]

If a good team of beaters push the birds at a moderate pace shooting driven pheasant with a muzzle loader is truly living the past , to do it justice it is best when two shooters are too one stand [peg]with one shooting while the other loads then change after each shot. Always remember one bird killed with a muzzle loading shotgun is better than 10 with a modern over and under You really have too concentrate on each shot which hopefully ends with a kill which you remember for many years too come
FeltwadView attachment 67902

Awesome picture sir