Elk load

[Rifleman1776]

Unfortunately too many ml shooters still think in modern gun terms and ballistics. MLs are not modern guns and we must accept that, as an antiquated firearm, it has limitations. Within those limitations, the round ball ml is a very effective killer. Trying to extend those limitations will mean misses and wounded game.
Those TV shots of taking elk at vast distances are simply not good sportsmanship. I have to wonder how many misses and wounded animal shots are edited out before all the excitement of a downed animal gets on TV.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Lots of bad read about conicals. I have switched to prb's, but have killed enough elk with conicals to consider them very reliable. The longest shot was a paced off 110 yards. The bull walked about 20 yards and dropped. Every other elk I shot either dropped in their tracks or moved only a minimal distance. Of course this was with a .54, but with your knowledge of getting close, you should have no problem with a .50. Don't be afraid of conicals, but consider a prb also.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

54 on elk is a much better set up. I built a 58 round ball shooter just for that and leave my 50cal sidelocks for target shooting.

As for the post that said conicals leave to neat of a hole. Yes they do leave a neat hole to look at.

Another, but this is a tiny 45cal conical hole.

now this is a 250gr conical in 50cal. Exit side.

348gr conical a neat little hole that left a blood trail 2 feet wide.

Yes we are in agreement, conicals do leave neat holes in game.

 

[rawhide]

I myself hunted elk with a cva .54 hawken rifle with a 1:48 twist. I used a 380 real bullet and 90 grains of FFFg 777. or rs or FFg goex. liked the 777 the best. every elk I shot went strait down. most were shot with in 50 yards realy brushy where I hunted.

 

[hanshi]

You're going to get a lot of good comments. I hunt with a friend that has good luck with 80g Pdx and a conical bullet. I prefer a round ball and 60 grains of 3F. Keep in mind hydrostatic shock is not a factor. The animal will bleed out caused by a thumb-sized hole through one or both sides. The only animals that I have shot that "dropped in their tracks" with a muzzleloader were shot in the back of the head, base of the neck. I would probably be well served by a hotter load, but I'm big on shot placement and the comfort and practice of my hunting load. I turn down more shots than I take. You might base you decision on which load will go through a femur or shoulder blade on the near side based on the conditions of your hunt: range, slope, obstructions.

I'm guessing your post was in answer to mine; and if so then that's fine. I feel impelled to put forth the fact that "I" hunt only with prb. Conicals are okay and I have absolutely nothing against them. I've just never seen any reason to use them - even though I own two boxes, .50 and .54 maxi(s).

Many on the forum take the majority of what I post seriously and the minority posts as humor. Those need to be switched with "most" being facetious and the lesser being serious. I'm "serious" about humor and do not joke around about it. Just a character flaw I'm working on. Soooo.... squint when you look at me pardner; I might have hold of your leg. :stir:

 

[Dphar]

Self-discipline comes into it. In a funny run on stats, I've seen 6 elk killed with 50 cals, all by the same two guys. First and second hunts they used conicals and had long trailing jobs and follow-up shots. Third year they both used RB and had good clean one-shot kills with short tracking jobs.

Proves nothing about the caliber, but a lot about these two (former) yahoos. The first couple of years they used conicals, they seemed to think it gave them license to take longer shots. But they hadn't practiced a whole lot and made rotten shots at 100+ yards. Not a fair test of conicals, and a huge test of them as hunters.

They finally got religion and started shooting RBs and practicing a bunch because they were cheaper and didn't hurt so bad. Year three they both got within 50 yards, made good shots and finished the job as it should be done.

With your bow hunting background, sounds like you'd be in a league with these guys in their third year. Conicals will work well too, with good shots at ranges suitable to the shooter's skill level. They'll certainly give you extra range with those quals. But they'll kill well at under 50 yards, too.

As for conicals in ML, there's documentation of them being used from a Hawken out of Taos in 1842. If that doesn't fit the guidelines of this site, then I can't read.

Conicals are probably best considered a "western thing." But they most certainly are pre-civil war in the west for the historically correct. Anyone shooting elk in the East today would certainly be correct in requiring their hunting mates to use round balls! :rotf:

Actually back in the day the Picket Bullet, the only conical widely used by CIVILIANS before breechloaders was an eastern thing.
The guy on the way to Santa Fe with the Hawken that shot bullets an inch long is the exception that proves the rule. If it was common it would not have elicited comment. That they were NOT common is proven by Hawkens and other mountain rifles NOT being fitted for guide "piston" starters. Since a picket is hopelessly inaccurate without one of these no matter how careful its loaded.

This thing must also be used with caution and the bullet pushed into the barrel not struck as is common practice with RB starters. Its also fragile and of the fitted cup for the bullet nose is damaged its not easily repairable and basically needs to be rebuilt with a cutter than matches the bullet nose.

"Naked" conicals are useless if horseback unless the muzzle is kept up at all times.

While this comment on the Hawken rifle with the inch long bullet was the reason I started experimenting with pickets I still consider it as an example of an anomaly. While surely known to the gunsmiths in St Louis due to Schuetzen shooting if nothing else, elongated bullets were not not widely used by hunters so far as I can find. Practical experience tells me they are impractical in the field.
The false muzzle, BTW, was initially invented for picket bullets.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

54 on elk is a much better set up. I built a 58 round ball shooter just for that and leave my 50cal sidelocks for target shooting.

As for the post that said conicals leave to neat of a hole. Yes they do leave a neat hole to look at.

Another, but this is a tiny 45cal conical hole.

now this is a 250gr conical in 50cal. Exit side.

348gr conical a neat little hole that left a blood trail 2 feet wide.

Yes we are in agreement, conicals do leave neat holes in game.

What I see is meat loss.
Remember that a 50 RB will shoot through deer to 150 yards + and it does so with less of a mess.
I hate butchering things like this.
Looks like the bullet came out sideways.

Dan

 

[Kentuckywindage]

no mess at all. No throw away meat.

a 50cal round ball at 150 yards has what.. 175ft lbs energy?

All the animals i posted either dropped in their tracks or went 30 yards. The deer shot with the 45cal conical actually rolled further when she walked after the hit :haha:

 

[Bill Hall]

Looks pretty typical to me, not much meat damage. Just kinda bloody. Bill

 

[nkbj]

Round ball is a short light bullet, generally the shortest and lightest bullet for any given caliber that people use in muzzleloaders. Longer heavier muzzleloader bullets are just longer and weigh more. For any given caliber there's some that weigh only a little more than the very lightest round ball and some that weigh much more than a round ball. So on one end of the spectrum you have the very lightest and on the other you have the very heaviest. And the best performing hunting bullet for any given caliber is somewhere in between, if your rifle will shoot it accurately enough with a heavy enough powder charge for it to work well for you under the conditions you hunt in.
:wink:

 

[ryoung14]

Elk bones are bigger and heavier that those in deer. A deer rib bone wouldn't be much challenge for a .50 RB; an elk rib might. A deer shoulder bone might be a challenge for the RB; an elk shoulder bone certainly would.

I would think the uncertainty of the hunting situation would demand an approach that would give a good chance of success when hunter input was less than ideal; not an approach that assumes ideal shot placement. On elk, I'd want the near-certain bone breaking power of a heavy conical.

I've found that the Hornady Great Plains bullet of 385 grains over 70 to 80 grains of powder shoots very accurately from a fast twist .50 barrel. There are heavier versions. At PRB ranges, they'd up the odds for success.

 

[Vaino]

The post concerned what projectile would be better in a .50 cal. rifle used for elk. In this caliber and considering all the possible factors of elk hunting, I think a heavy conical would kill better than a PRB.

If the caliber is larger than .50, then either a conical or PRB would do equally as well. Our elk camp has {1} .50 that uses a conical and the other 3-4 hunters use .54 PRBs w/ equal effectiveness.

Considering the altitude, terrain and thick cover at times when hunting elk, ideal shots are intended but don't always happen. A heavy conical in a .50 used in the above circumstances would kill better than a .50 PRB.....Fred

 

[StewartLeach]

'yote:

Be sure to check and see if the state you will hunt elk in has minimum caliber and projectile weight requirements. This is a growing trend, arising from people who believed the advertising about their stainless and plastic pretend black powder rifle. Too much wounding loss.

My own experiences have all been with a ca. 1985 TC Renegade in 54 cal, using 80 grains of 2Fg Goex pushing a home cast Lee Improved Minie. Lube is three coats of Lee Liquid Alox. This year, though, I may give it a try with the new Green Mtn 58 cal RB barrel.

Mind set and attitude have to be right. ML arms do not have the penetrating power to bust diagonally through an elk's shoulder to get to the boiler room. I try to think like an archery hunter who has an 80 yard effective range, and limit my shots to broadide, or slightly behind.

White Fox, in the Peoples Republic of Boulder

 

[Kentuckywindage]

'yote:

Be sure to check and see if the state you will hunt elk in has minimum caliber and projectile weight requirements. This is a growing trend, arising from people who believed the advertising about their stainless and plastic pretend black powder rifle. Too much wounding loss.

:bull: states have caliber and bullet weight restrictions so some dummy doesnt use a 22cal on an elk or a shotgun with dove shot, or a puny 45cal round ball on elk.

 

[art kunstmann]

80 yd archery shot!!!...Thats why i'm using a ML, i've had LOTS of elk at 80 yds and just couldn't get closer...I've killed 6 with my recurve and cedar arrow all at less than 30 yds. There isn't an ethical hunter out there that would chance an archery shot on an elk at 80 yds. If he did and was in my camp i'd kick his a$$ out and he could walk home...

 

[longcruise]

states have caliber and bullet weight restrictions so some dummy doesnt use a 22cal on an elk or a shotgun with dove shot, or a puny 45cal round ball on elk.

Rather than hoist the "BS" flag in the face of knowledgeable board members, you ought to do some research on CO ML regs. Then you would learn exactly the reason for and history of the regs as they are at least in your own state!

And, while I'm taking the time to address you, lets revisit this;

no mess at all. No throw away meat.

My RB killed big game never looks like the pics you posted. :shake: I've only seen messes like that when animals were shot with modern guns shooting poorly constructed bullets. Even the few I shot in the old days with .50 and conical did not look like that! :shocked2:

 

[longcruise]

80 yd archery shot!!!...Thats why i'm using a ML, i've had LOTS of elk at 80 yds and just couldn't get closer...I've killed 6 with my recurve and cedar arrow all at less than 30 yds. There isn't an ethical hunter out there that would chance an archery shot on an elk at 80 yds. If he did and was in my camp i'd kick his a$$ out and he could walk home...

What if you were in his camp?? :shocked2:

Relax, just kidding!! :surrender:

White Fox is not so far off of the shooting done by many of the wheelie shooters. And, they are often on ethically sound ground when using familiar equipment, range finders and shooting without a trace of wind. That said, I too am a stick bow hunter and don't feel comfortable much past 20 yards!

 

[Little Wattsy]

'yote:

Be sure to check and see if the state you will hunt elk in has minimum caliber and projectile weight requirements. This is a growing trend, arising from people who believed the advertising about their stainless and plastic pretend black powder rifle. Too much wounding loss.

:bull: states have caliber and bullet weight restrictions so some dummy doesnt use a 22cal on an elk or a shotgun with dove shot, or a puny 45cal round ball on elk.

Oh come on now... It dosnt matter what you shoot an elk with "You just gotta do your part"..... :stir:
Sorry I couldnt help it and I couldnt agree with you more.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

states have caliber and bullet weight restrictions so some dummy doesnt use a 22cal on an elk or a shotgun with dove shot, or a puny 45cal round ball on elk.

Rather than hoist the "BS" flag in the face of knowledgeable board members, you ought to do some research on CO ML regs. Then you would learn exactly the reason for and history of the regs as they are at least in your own state!

And, while I'm taking the time to address you, lets revisit this;

no mess at all. No throw away meat.

My RB killed big game never looks like the pics you posted. :shake: I've only seen messes like that when animals were shot with modern guns shooting poorly constructed bullets. Even the few I shot in the old days with .50 and conical did not look like that! :shocked2:

Your round ball game kills dont look like that because your balls have the same amount of energy at 100 yards that my conicals produce at 400 yards. Actually mine most likely still produce more LOL.

Copper is far from being poorly constructed. .970" dia when fully opened. All you see in the pic is blood jelly from the impact. Also one was a 1/4in toward shot directly through the chest.

 

[ib4elk]

I have not posted yet here in the forum, and this is my first, but my passion is elk hunting and I use a stick bow. I am getting into ML'ing with my kids so they can hunt with me during the archery season (if they draw!) and also so we can hunt later seasons with ML for fun - almost too easy to get within 200 yards needed with modern rifles. Being a stick bow shooter yourself, and willing to get close, you should have no issues with shooting an elk with a 50 Cal with PRB - and I am assuming you will get within 50-70 yards or closer. I get within 50 yards all the time but can't shoot with my preset range of 20 yards or under.

I do want to comment on the 80 yard range with a bow. Anyone, even a wheely, who thinks they can ethically take an 80 yard shot with a bow should not be allowed to hunt! Way too many variables, even on a perfectly calm day as the sound alone will get there 3-4 times faster than the arrow.