Elk load

[rodwha]

The 80 yd archery shot has been taken out of context. WF did not say he shoots his bow out to 80 yds. What he said was:

"I try to think like an archery hunter who has an 80 yard effective range, and limit my shots to broadide, or slightly behind."

He, like an archer who must keep his range shorter, thinks like an archer (gotta get close), but having a muzzleloader, has an 80 yd max.

 

[ib4elk]

I stand corrected - thank you rodwha and I agree with your reply.

 

[Dphar]

no mess at all. No throw away meat.

a 50cal round ball at 150 yards has what.. 175ft lbs energy?

All the animals i posted either dropped in their tracks or went 30 yards. The deer shot with the 45cal conical actually rolled further when she walked after the hit :haha:

Most critters, properly hit will cover 30-50 yards regardless of projectile or velocity. I can count the "drop in their tracks I have had on one hand in about 30 years of hunting various critters in MT with a wide variety or firearms. including but not limited to 50-54-58-67 FL and percussion rifles, 50-54 ML pistols, various BPCRs for 38-40 to 45 BPE (120 gr of powder). Various modern HV from 5.56 in an AR (60 gr Vmax penetrate well on WT), 6.5x55, 270, 30-06, 35 WCF, hot loaded 45-70 with 300-325-400 gr SP bullets and a few others including 218 Bee.

You keep getting hung up on energy. Its just a number and at BP velocities is nearly meaningless.
A 50 RB BTW will shoot completely through a Mule deer on broadside shots at 150 yards started with 1/2 ball weight of Goex FFF. Baffle board testing with loads with known penetration on game indicates that they will make it to the far side hide at least even at slight angles to 200 yards.
I did this 30 years ago and tested the 54 Maxi too. Yep it penetrated 30-50% better depending on the distance. But if the 50 RB will shoot through a deer as fat as I should be shooting at one what is gained by the extra penetration.
A 6" barreled 50 cal belt pistol will shoot completely through an antelope at 25-30 yards and through so much dirt up beyond I wondered if I had missed.
800 fps.
Mule deer? Penetrated heavy muscles at the shoulder passed through the lungs and was under the hide at the diaphragm.
Friend head shot a cow elk with it at way too close (long story but a client had shot off a front leg and he cornered her on a rimrock. Ball entered the forehead, exited the back of the skull and took out a couple of vertebra.
Two years ago he killed a WT doe at 120 with a 45 RB and got complete pass through. Shot at antelope at 238 steps with a 54 RB and it was a one shot kill.
I would also point out that both he and I have shot a considerable number of various sized animals with BPCRs that are similar in performance to the conicals in MLs. Frankly other than increasing the range. IF you have a table to tell you where to hold, there is little difference in a 350 gr 45 caliber bullet and a 54 RB on most animals in NA.
The 45-70-500 infantry load from the 1870s carries about as much energy at 1000 yards as a 50 RB does at 200. But hitting a deer or elk at 1000 yards with one is about like shooting at the moon so the energy it carries is of little import.
I would have to ask if you have ever hunted with a traditional MLing hunting rifle. I would doubt it for the comments which read like something some of the conical bullet shills write for gun magazines.
I was hunting with MLs before the "modern" ML bullet arrived on the scene. As a result I never saw any need for them.
People who have come along later have often read this drivel and believed it. Not knowing that magazines are advertising driven and will not give an advertiser a bad writeup, they will lie first. Because magazines live or die on advertising. The subscription will not cover the postage much less pay the writers.
With 75 gr of FFF Swiss in a clean bore my 50 cal swivel breech pushed a 498 rb 1875 from one barrel and 1885 from the other today.
This will produce over 150 ft lbs at 300 yards (179 actually) it makes over 300 at 150 yards.

From Hornady's site

This the upper leg bone from a Mule Deer doe, 25+- yard shot with a 54 cal Perc pistol. Deer went about 40 yards. Ball was under the far side hide and had taken out at least one rib as well.

Deer shoulder from 60 yards, 50 caliber from the swivel breech, ball passed through. Probably only producing about 700 fp energy, if that is important. This was poor shot placement when the sight got bumped and moved the impact point.

This is the heart of a deer after being struck by a .662 RB at about 40 yards.

Bed time.
Dan

 

[Kentuckywindage]

okay hows the 50cal do on Elk at 125+ yards, on shoulder bone.

conical wins every time when long range shots are taken.

Heck the 45cal i shot the doe with in the picture i posted, that guns conical load was deadly out to 200 yards. Only problem was, you couldnt make out a tiny deer at 200 yards with open sights :haha:

Sorry but shooting a 50cal round ball into elk at longer distances is just wrong for the animal. I consider a 54cal minimum for elk size game when it comes to longer range shots.

Sure i took my elk at 140 yards with a double lung shot and she went 60 yards with 80gr RS and a 223gr round bal, but with my new 58, its getting pushed with the stiffest powder charge it will shoot with superb accuracy.

Shooting something in the head VS taking an actual long range broadside shot, those are 2 different stories.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good post and info, Dan.
However methinks it will not have an effect on those with the 'maxi'; 'penetration';'long range';'energy'; 'etc.' mindset.
The table you posted shows well that a rb beyond 100 yards simply runs out of legs. That is my maximum range when hunting with my ml rifle.
Want to play the range game? Get a big suppository gun.

 

[mike3132]

So you guys are saying the 800 FPE that most experts say is the least amount to humanely kill a WT is wrong? Or does the BP world use different numbers? Not trying to start anything just trying to understand why FPE to some isn't important or at least have a minimum FPE for each game animal. Mike

 

[rodwha]

This is one intriguing aspect to using traditional muzzleloading equipment.
I grew up reading a lot about modern designs and what worked well or was considered ideal or necessary. But I've been told many times that you must leave the modern understandings at the door.
At first I thought it was a bunch of nonsense as it flew in the face of what I felt I understood, as well as what the experts knew and taught. But reading many threads of the hunting experiences from guys and gals such as these has given me reason to lay aside my need for a conical to give a PRB a try.
If that silly little lead ball can go clean through an animal and kill it in a similar manner as a modern projectile why not give it a go?
I would have thought that a 177 grn RB with barely more than 400 ft/lbs of energy, and such a sorry sectional density about the worst thing to hunt deer with. But it's possible to go clean through it. Sounds good enough to me.

 

[hanshi]

The thread has already strayed a little so here goes.

With respect to the "experts" FPE doesn't kill game animals. Damage to vital organs kills game animals. This 800fpe minimum is meaningless. And "energy" is NOT soaked up by the animal or wasted on the dirt behind the animal. The prb/conical is just a dumb slug and does nothing other than carry the will of the hunter toward the target. If it penetrates to the vitals the creature dies. Period. All the penetration needed is the amount required to carry the projectile into the vitals. That's it. Nothing more needed. Range matters not in the slightest to the projectile. It matters to the hunter who wants to hit the vital area. A prb can and will kill cleanly at ANY range the ball can still penetrate to the vitals. The ONLY variable is not fpe at X yards, but rather the shooter's ability to hit; pure and simple. Round patched ball will do that. If you use conicals you'll also kill game; but not any better or farther than the prb hunter. Use what you feel comfortable with and enjoy.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

so all those that say the 50cal ball will kill cleanly at 140-150 yards with a 177gr ball, whats your experience on elk with lung shots and shoulder shots at that distance.

 

[nkbj]

FPE is indeed hokum. However, there is a quality that lends itself to lethality that I know of no way to convey or characterize except as rate of displacement. Bigger slower ball, smaller faster ball, slower bullet that holds its velocity better a little further down range to let its diameter do the job... as long as penetration is still there then the greater rate of displacement is the better.

 

[larry wv]

I would guess along track job on the lung shot and a empty freezer and crippled elk on the shoulder shot. Would have been better with a conical. Larry

 

[Dickydalton]

In all the years I carried my flinter and 50 Hawkin I've never got a chance to shoot because of range. I've never been lucky enough to hunt elk. Of all the deer I shot with my 44 mag Smith, 1895 45-70 and .264 mag custom one made it 20 feet before dropping. On deer I think a RB is all I need. On elk, 50 years of shooting and reloading for many calibers would make me lean to the conical bullet. I don't claim to be expert on the topic but, I've never lost a game animal I shot either.