English Fowler ID

[OldRust]

Evening,

I've acquired a really nice English Fowler I think English. It has a H Nock marked lock, London on the top of the barrel, on the bottom of the barrel several proof marks along with Stul fine twisted. One of the proofs resembles a Birmingham proof. Also stamped inside the lock inlet is SHDICKSON. Any information or a direction to research this fella would be greatly appreciated. Thanks O.R.

 

[TFoley]

The word was originally 'STUB' twisted, and is the method of making the barrel from a series of high-quality iron stubs, or short lengths of iron, hammer forged together in a spiral around a mandrel to make a tube that is gradually beaten out into a barrel. The more stubs used in this process, the finer the grade of barrel. There is a movie on Youtube of an American craftsman making a barrel for a pistol in this manner. The stubs, by the way, are twisted around the mandrel, hence the use of the words 'fine twist' that can often be seen on guns like yours. The proof marks, and everything else about this lovely piece, are all English, no doubt about it. The crossed sceptres and BPC are Birmingham proof marks prior to 1904 - both Dickson and H Nock were English gunmmakers of high quality arms.

 

[OldRust]

The word was originally 'STUB' twisted, and is the method of making the barrel from a series of high-quality iron stubs, or short lengths of iron, hammer forged together in a spiral around a mandrel to make a tube that is gradually beaten out into a barrel. The more stubs used in this process, the finer the grade of barrel. There is a movie on Youtube of an American craftsman making a barrel for a pistol in this manner. The stubs, by the way, are twisted around the mandrel, hence the use of the words 'fine twist' that can often be seen on guns like yours. The proof marks, and everything else about this lovely piece, are all English, no doubt about it. The crossed sceptres and BPC are Birmingham proof marks prior to 1904 - both Dickson and H Nock were English gunmmakers of high quality arms.

TFoley Thank you! That is excellent information. I'll definitely look for the uTube video.
I couldn't pass this one up for the workmanship and condition alone. I have another 16ga fowler a Belgian that will go to the field with me. This one has a place on the wall. Best regards O.R.

 

[Feltwad]

I would say this gun started has a flintlock and converted to percussion with a drum and nipple . The proof marks may be private proof marks and later when converted the Birmingham Proof house proof marks
Feltwad

 

[TFoley]

Let me slightly enlarge on Mr Feltwad's comment above, without in any way detracting form its validity. When he mentions 'private proof marks' he does NOT mean that the owner put them there himself. The owner, having had it converted to percussion, perhaps in order to sell it as a 'modern arm', had it proofed by the Birmingham Proof House at his expense, in accordance with the law, which states that you cannot sell an unproofed firearm in the UK for the purpose of shooting it.

 

[OldRust]

Gentleman,

Many thanks for your input. This is an education in British arms for me. Is it possible that the two markings below the very clear Birmingham proof are partial London proofs? I see that Henry Nock was a very early gun and lock maker and I cant find the timeline of Mr. S.R. Dickson. Possibly a H Nock flint gun converted to percussion by Mr Dickson ? I've attached a photo of the inside of the lock.

Thanks & regards
O.R.

 

[Treestalker]

The historical context of the makers alone is justification for the price. Well done! If it has a good bore, you might want to try it in the field, just to know what a really fine shotgun feels like in action.

 

[TFoley]

I can tell you what it feels like - it feels like a magic wand that you wave through the target and hey presto! it disappears. Nothing at all feels in the least like an old English fowling piece. I picked up a friend's $15000 Perazzi rightways afterwards and shot a straight 25 holes in the air. It felt like swinging a chainsaw.

BTW, here is a movie about making a twist barrel in Belgium almost a hundred years ago. This style of barrel is often called a Damascus twist from the beautiful pattern made by the intertwining strips of metal and their resemblance to old-style Damascus steel blades - the more twists it is made of, the more it costs.

 

[OldRust]

I can tell you what it feels like - it feels like a magic wand that you wave through the target and hey presto! it disappears. Nothing at all feels in the least like an old English fowling piece. I picked up a friend's $15000 Perazzi rightways afterwards and shot a straight 25 holes in the air. It felt like swinging a chainsaw.

BTW, here is a movie about making a twist barrel in Belgium almost a hundred years ago. This style of barrel is often called a Damascus twist from the beautiful pattern made by the intertwining strips of metal and their resemblance to old-style Damascus steel blades - the more twists it is made of, the more it costs.

That is an excellent video, Their craftmanship just blows me away. This H Nock one has a mirror bore and I am tempted to take it to the trap range it at least once just for the feel. Thanks OR

 

[OldRust]

I came across an article in my library today = Damascus Barrels written by Lee Kennett in 1972 that goes into a bit of detail on the distinction between twisted and Damascus barrels. Also that the Stub Twist name came from using the stubs of old horseshoe nails.. Now that I know What a stub twist is <G>

Thanks again O.R.

 

[Rudyard]

Henry Nock died in 1805 that proof cant be earlier than 1814 the other mark I think is Bournes or some private maker not Nock. I have a 12 bore rifle very much the same style & Nocks as flint but breached for percussion by Squires . The Brum proof is established 1813 but whether they where ready for operations that date I am unsure hence reckon on 1814. Either way its not against it .. His dieing if a bit of a nuisance for him dosn't mean the firm ceased in that style .Twigg , Manton, or Egg undoubtedly set the' house style' but didn't & couldn't work on every gun bearing their names .But would maintain the firms standards . The lower mark is Brum its the' View' mark i e' inspection before & after proof
Rudyard

 

[ResearchPress]

Ref. the additional 'tombstone' mark along with the proof marks, see the following free PDF download on my web site for more information: Why The Tombstone?

There's also a couple of other articles on English Provincial Gun Barrel Markings.

David

 

[Rudyard]

Dear David I failed to get a clear view of the Tombstone are you saying its a proof house mark ? I think it more a barrel makers mark my guess was Bourne. I do have some info on it but finding it to confirm takes digging . Regards Rudyard

 

[Heelerau]

Last year I busted a heap of clays with a mates 16 bore Joseph Egg, there is absolutely not doubt that an old English high grade fowler handles a treat. I am no shotgunner in reality but I kept up with a bunch of experienced shooters using modern over and under, they were much surprised, so was I .

 

[Rudyard]

Dear David I failed to get a clear view of the Tombstone are you saying its a proof house mark ? I think it more a barrel makers mark my guess was Bourne. I do have some info on it but finding it to confirm takes digging . Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

that is a superb video. so sad that it all gone with the masters also. maybe it is for the best? I don't think they would like it now?

 

[ResearchPress]

. . . . . the Tombstone are you saying its a proof house mark ? I think it more a barrel makers mark my guess was Bourne. . . . .

I’m not suggesting any source for the mark, it is not something I have studied. I solely pointed to an article that discusses many such marks found. The authors of that article suggest it may be that of a barrel maker (or a group of barrel makers).

David

 

[Rudyard]

Dear David I examined my 12 bore rifled Nock it has just the Brum proof & when Squires fitted the new plug he cut in half the view mark & there are no other. So if where London odd they should be on the 1" missing section . The pitch in 30" is just a quarter the barrel almost as light as a musket might be . With martial engraveing and a small Baker style box of brass presume added later . Some Officer of a Volunteer unit my guess but no sling provision . I know your a very knowledgable man Ime not meaning to question your views . Perhaps like many another, Nocks firm had guns made in Brum and just retailed such as this ?
.The old "No body made nowt '' ' And them what did made it in Birmingham". Same thing with cutlery & the Sheffield trade Even the most pathetic pocket pistol might bear LONDON along with its Brum proof mark. Just an observation no heat to it .
Regards Rudyard

 

[ResearchPress]

Rudyard, these guns are generally outside of my interest so I can’t offer any insight. My only contribution was observing the ‘tombstone’ mark in one of the pictures posted, which prompted me to point readers to a source of further reading on these marks. Brian Godwin gave me the article (for over 20 years Brian was the Adviser of Historical Firearms to the National Trust, appraising and cataloguing the historic firearms within their care).

David

 

[mathews186]

Evening,

I've acquired a really nice English Fowler I think English. It has a H Nock marked lock, London on the top of the barrel, on the bottom of the barrel several proof marks along with Stul fine twisted. One of the proofs resembles a Birmingham proof. Also stamped inside the lock inlet is SHDICKSON. Any information or a direction to research this fella would be greatly appreciated. Thanks O.R. View attachment 45103View attachment 45104View attachment 45105View attachment 45106View attachment 45107View attachment 45108View attachment 45109

These are private birmingham proof marks last used 1812 or early 1813 and are the immediate predecessors of the proof mark on your gun. My gun is also signed by Westley Richards who stated in 1812.