English Trade Knives

[crockett]

Pichou: Much thanks on the source for the yew handles, I've done a fair amount of research and never saw that. Thanks again.
On the coat hanger: is the metal soft enough to peen hammer? On the scalpers I've seen the pins look pretty much un-hammered but on some of the Wilson butcher knives the pins look - to me- like they were hammered, at least a little.
And...I am sort of confused on all this taper/ bevel business. If we look at the knife from above, so that all we see is the spine or top of the blade. Some of the knives will be of an even thickness in the middle and then taper at the point. Some may also taper towards the back of the tang.
If we hold the knife horizontal to the ground with the point facing us, we can see the cross section profile. Some of these profiles will show flat "V" shapes from the spine to the edge. Other knives may have more of a curve or "U" shape -convex- from the spine to the edge. Finally there is the side ways profile that we would see if we put a blank blade flat on a table.
I have relied upon a few sources, one is James A. Hanson's Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook. On p.14 is a H. Cutler +/F Scalper and the profile from the top appears to taper both to the point and rear of the tang. On the next page is a scalper from 1860 where the tang is flat. Hanson says he thinks an even thickness in the tang (or the blade itself)indicates the knife was made from flat bar stock and would date 1850 or later. On the other hand p 18 shows a ripper c. 1900 that tapers to the front and back. So we might conclude a flat tang is 1850 or later but a tapered tang could be any date, not necessarily pre-1850.
On the bevels, if the early knives were hand forged, if steel was at a premium, and the knives were utilitarian, it is my THOUGHT that the bevels were likely flat, maybe Wick or some one who forges blades could add some thoughts but it was my impression that forging a flat V would be the easiest, fastest way to do it. Why? Because the hammer face is flat and the top of the anvil is flat, so the bevels would be flat (I think) From the little forging I have done I would say the tapering of the point- while forging the blade- would cause the metal in that area to naturally curve upwards a little. As is seen on many of the earlier knives.
An archivist in Sheffield pretty much told me all the early knives were forged. What the steel stock used to forge looked like before the blades were forged I don't know. The stock could have been flat bars requiring little work and cutting with a chisel, etc; or, the stock could have been square in cross section, requiring a lot more hammering- I simply don't know but since the very early blades seem to have almost a continual taper front point to a middle thickness and then taper to the end of the tang, I thought flat bar stock that was the same thickness as the finished knife was not used as such would have resulted in a greater portion of the middle of the blade being on an even thickness.
Another mystery I have been unable to figure out is the fit of the wood to the tang. It usually looks pretty good however there are angles going in all directions. There were men in Sheffield that worked only as half pressers and I have wondered if the tang/wood was attached under some sort of pressure that gave a good wood to metal fit in a fast, cheap manner. I have been unable to get any information on this. I am told the pressure type of hafting was only done with horn, not wood.
I know I am talking about a lot of small details but these details are of BIG IMPORTANCE to those of us really interested in this subject. Thanks to all for any comments.
And.. I at least have a continual problem of not questioning things every step of the way. I often think I have most of the facts straight or documented but upon second analysis I realize I am still basing some things on assumptions or maybe only one reference source. That's why I think this forum is really great, it is a way to have others point out where we may be going astray in our research, which is the way it must be if we are to gain any new, worthwhile knowledge. Again, thanks to all.

 

[pichou]

Wow, again, lots to comment on.

The knives I have traced are all early, most 18th century. The top Brit one is a Broomhead, who I think died before 1800? Another common mark and maker around here is William Parker, who died before 1787.

I do see hammered pins. Coat hanger flares out nice, without mushrooming too fast, or bending.

Cross sections are a V. A combination of forging and the Brit style of grinding.

Thickness is harder to tell on dug knives. The tangs do seem to be tapered.

Profile. Like I said, I believe they were cut from steel stock, then tapered and curved. Later ones aren't as curved, and have more belly or bow in the tip. Hanson's trade knives tend to be post 1812. Kinda fits the western focus or bias of the MOFT.

Haft pressers. If you have seen tintype/ambrotype cases made of composition... that is the same level of decoration that was pressed into horn scales. I have only seen them on fancy razors.

Cutlers used rosin and iron oxide as a filler for the handles. But fitting handles to those tapered tangs is still no picnic. I have thrown a few :cursing: :cursing: handles across the shop!

I have seen other postings about knives without handles, but never saw anything in documents. Trade axes were sold without hafts though.
**********

Hairy... you are correct, unless they are digging up graves or Native American religious items. The assemblages that are showing up on ebay are thought by some to be indicative of burial goods. There is also the story of one of these guys offering to sell somebody a skull. May just be a rumor though.

Point 2. Professional archeologists and museum types frown on buying dug items. When they are dug just to get them out of the ground, and the sites kept secret, their greatest value is lost. That value is context. We learn soooo much when we can see all these things together, and how they relate to each other. When you loose that, a trade knife is just a rusty chunk of iron with a interesting outline.

Buying stuff like that only encourages more people to dig, and we loose huge chunks of our history... stories that will never be told. It's up to you, but I think that's sad.

 

[pichou]

... simple stuff like this instead of the giant toad-stabber bowies and cut-down sword rifleman's knives.

I hear ya!

A buddy of mine has a standard rant about those toad stabbers:

I know you're all picturing that Rambo-Cujo-Terminator-Scotty MacMacho 4 foot stainless blade with the Star Spangled Banner acid etched into the blade... yep, that 4 foot long, eight inch wide and 2 inch thick club with a Rockwell pedigree that would make the Queen of England sit down and shut up...

OK, yeah, they look cool and all, but let me think... the last time I was in a knife fight... it was 400 to 1, and...

The last time I had to slit open an ox during a blizzard...

The last time I had to pry up a boulder so it would fall down the cliff and kill the posse...

The last time I threw my knife across the room, so it stuck in the wall just in front of Mel Gibson...

The last time I had to cut the horses free so the wagon (and ma and ol' shep) didn't go off the cliff...

OK, now it's time to tell the truth.

The best knife should have a good point, so you can clean your nails while watching old John Wayne movies.

The best knife should be thin enough to pick your teeth and use the back edge as a screw driver.

The best knife should be pitted and rusty, so your friends will make fun of it, but nobody will steal it.

The best knife should be short enough so that you don't need to study court etiquette, and so you don't operate on your hernia every time you sit down.

The best knife should be very sharp. Oops, I told you it was sharp!

The best knife should be light weight, so you don't know it's there until you need it.

The best knife should be an all-round tool, especially since you know the only use it will get next event is when the wife wants to peel potatoes! Shocked

:rotf:

(quote used with permission)

 

[tg]

There is a listing of goods brought over by the French to Biloxy 1701,that lists swords with handles and ferrules, I don't know if this refers to completed swords or the needed parts to assemble them, there is also a breeching plate and ten dies for gun building purposes ( how many French Fusils were made over here?) and 1000 lbs of goose shot, often many speculate as to whether shot was purchased or made by individuals by primitive methods, also lots of various files as well,there were many knives but all appear to be allready assembled.Nice job on the knife, do you fit the angles to match the taper then shape the rest of the handle?

 

[crockett]

Pichou: "then tapered and curved." I'm still confused, what do you mean? The up swept tip or something else?

On the knives being shipped without handles. I haven't seen that and I think where possible, look at the price. If the cost is the same as handled knives then those items in question probably also had handles, doesn't make sense the blades only would be the same cost.

How the un-hafted knife question arose I don't know but there are a few lists that mention filling up the rest of a cask, etc with knives and maybe someone just thought the blades only were shipped. There are also some existing scalpers with pins out of line, etc that may have been done at posts, etc provided the wood was of the area, not boxwood, rosewood, etc. but then again the original knife may have been left near a camp fire and the handle burned (done that) and had to be replaced.
TG- I cheat, I use a dremel tool to gouge out the inside of the scale and then put black on the tang and scrap until I get a good fit. Once again- I have no idea how it was originally done- and this would pertain to a two piece handle or scales, not the typical one piece scalper handle with a sawn kerf.

 

[pichou]

The French shipped over plenty of un-hilted sword blades. I think Champlain mentions this. Les Armes a Feu En Nouvelle-France by Russel Bouchard also talks about these.

Curve... yes, the up-sweep.

 

Pichou: "then tapered and curved."

If they forged in the taper and bevel, the curve will happen as a result of the forging. You're thinning the stock on one side more than the other. The material has to go somewhere so it gets longer on that edge, which creates the upswept curve. I've always suspected that the English used steam powered trip hammers for shaping the earlier knives and went to grinding for the later, straighter ones that did not have the tapered tangs.

Sean

 

[pichou]

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. :redface:

Forging in the V cross section made the blades curve. But I think the stock was cut in a wedge profile to start with. That's why the early knives have such a narrow front end. The later knives are much wider or taller in the front end/tip. What I called a belly.

No curve and a full thickness tang to me means later knives had more cutting and grinding, less forging.

 

[crockett]

Hey I never thought about bar stock that was already in a V shape!!!! They could have cut out the profile and did a moderate amount of forging to shape.
Some of the rifle barrels, like with the Pennsylvania Henry operation, I think they were forged and then ground. I figured the Sheffield blades were likely forged and ground to final shape. I'm pretty certain the trip hammer dates back to the 1800's and even much earlier so that was likely the means used however the archivist I dealt with said often the work was farmed out to smaller shops so maybe some hand forging as well. All these smaller shops had stamps of the major outfits. Some times you see the stamps look different, this could be that certain stamps were damaged or different sub contractors hit at different angles or force.

 

[LRB]

A good smith can control the up sweep, and even reverse it to a dropped point, and it doesn't have to be in a wedge shape to do either. Being in a wedge would save a little time, perhaps, but it is not necessary for the final shape before grinding.

 

[pichou]

Yeah, I agree, and I'm sure that's what the French were doing. But the thing I always look for in old forged stuff is the shape of the original stock. You can see a strong hint of the width of the stock in the French knives, but not the Brit. That's what has me thinking on the lines of cutting out shapes (the ones I am having trouble communicating ) before forging. The arrowheads definitely nest back together.

I didn't mean they used V cross section stock. :redface:

 

[bajabuc]

Wow, again, lots to comment on.


Hairy... you are correct, unless they are digging up graves or Native American religious items. The assemblages that are showing up on ebay are thought by some to be indicative of burial goods. There is also the story of one of these guys offering to sell somebody a skull. May just be a rumor though.

Point 2. Professional archeologists and museum types frown on buying dug items. When they are dug just to get them out of the ground, and the sites kept secret, their greatest value is lost. That value is context. We learn soooo much when we can see all these things together, and how they relate to each other. When you loose that, a trade knife is just a rusty chunk of iron with a interesting outline.

Buying stuff like that only encourages more people to dig, and we loose huge chunks of our history... stories that will never be told. It's up to you, but I think that's sad.

Is/was an archaeologist for the Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman Montana, the Bureau of Land Management and Montana State University from 1985 to 1999.
Dug stuff is of no value to the archaeologist...you need to KNOW where it came from...usually to the centimeter...and you can't just say, "it's from right here." unless you have a surveyor who said, "this here spot is so much north and so much east of the pin at thus and so and it's here on this map and I signed my name to it and I'm licensed by this agency."

Now, personal experience coming up. I'm not saying where or when this happened...but, During a transfer of artifacts from regular cardboard boxes to acid free temp and humidity controlled patrolled storage. I came across 5 remains, with grave goods. The nearest Reservation was informed and eventually a "medicine man" came out an picked up the stuff. I had stored it with sweet grass braid and a sage smudge stick and he wanted to know who had enough respect for the remains to have done it. I raised my hand...he shook it...gathered up the remains and gravegoods...walked out to the dumpster and deposited the remains and asked me where a good pawnshop was where he could sell the goods.
I've found others...I've never called again.

 

[LaBonte]

the thing I always look for in old forged stuff is the shape of the original stock.

You may not always be able to - the "beauty" of forging is that you can use stock of an originally unrelated shape(e.g. in a stock removal sense) and forge it into your end product example: I and many other smiths have used coil springs to forge into knives and many top modern smiths forge large ball bearings into blades.
In the case of English trade knives, Mike Ameling and other well researched smiths, have stated here and elsewhere/when that the English blades were rough shaped by forging using huge trip hammers, which were originally water powered and later steam powered and go back to at least the Middle Ages, and dies/molds (much the same way gun parts were forged to shape) - in this case the original stock would have been most likely rectangular or even square stock.
The lengthwise taper from grip to point is known as a distal taper and the upswept tip may have been just residual due to forging in the bevels or on purpose - in the latter case it could be forged in or created during the quench. For instance the curve of a Japanese sword is not forged in, but is an intentional side effect of the quench.
Anybody who has ever forged a blade knows all about banana shaped blades - this can be prevented/minimized by proper forging technique (Joe DeLaRonde shows how in BOB IV) and/or it can be adjusted using a thwacker - a good piece of hardwood or a leather mallet is a handy tool...

 

[pichou]

Yes, that is a mark of modern blacksmith stuff... that the original stock size is much more obvious.

However, I have seen orders for steel stock, and it came in many sizes. Now, if all you were making was the same knife over and over again, would you order bar or rod stock, or stock that was close to what you were making? Don't forget that steel rolling mills had been around since the 15th century, too. Plus, your comments do not address the arrowheads that nest neatly back together to show how they were cut from stock.
:v

Hairy: there are low life jerks of every color and heritage. Just because they behave unethically doesn't mean I will too. Looks like you found one of the bigger lowlifes.

 

Hairy,

I'm 52 yrs. old and a very peaceful fellow too old to get rowdy. :cursing: I would have stomped a mudhole in that.........................

Jay

 

[crockett]

These huge trip hammers, how common were they? In other words would a small shop in Sheffield have one? Once again I find myself assuming things. I thought trip hammers were expensive and if a large order was farmed out to a bunch of subcontractors, that these small contractors did all hand forging. Now I realize I really have no idea how these knives were forged.

 

Dave,

What's a small shop in Sheffield? Those guys supplied cutlery to most of the Western World.

Sean

 

[pichou]

Now we are getting deep! :thumbsup:

I guess the next thing is a economic geography study. Use the Sheffield directories to locate the shops. Trip hammers would require power. That would be water power. If the shops are not near water, they did not have trip hammers. Even steam needs lots of water. The big banks of grinders would also need power. How common were those, say in 1800? Or was it all apprentice power then? :hmm:

 

[LaBonte]

Yes, that is a mark of modern blacksmith stuff... that the original stock size is much more obvious.

Your statement is a bit confusing, but if your saying that it's only "modern" smiths that use unrelated stock than with respect you can't be more wrong. I started smithing in the early 1960's and all of the old time smiths, many who were 3 and 4 generation smiths, often used scrap which had no relationship to the final product for making items, including knives. And since my main interest is in historical smithing, I've also studied the research from folks such as Wallace Gusler and the Williamsburg smith on early smithing, which while not all knives, discusses the making of gunparts, etc using dyes.
Also Jean Jacques Perret's L'Art du Coutlier illustrates the use of bar stock for making knives and other cutlery. You seem to be looking at this from the view of stock removal rather than forging and there is no question that the blades or at least the blanks were forged.

However, I have seen orders for steel stock, and it came in many sizes. Now, if all you were making was the same knife over and over again, would you order bar or rod stock, or stock that was close to what you were making?

Well that comment shows a lack of understanding of the method I described using dies, often spring dies - when using the die method close to shape stock is unneccessary and may even be counterproductive. A small piece of stock, brought to heat and then mashed with a tilt/trip hammer (and dependent on the size of the finished product a good heavy hand held hammer) will mash it to the shape of the dye with little to no scrap, an important consideration when the steel itself was such a hard to make item.

Don't forget that steel rolling mills had been around since the 15th century, too.

Didn't forget at all and they were very handy for making armour and other plate items. But a consideration - why pay for the more expensive rolled stock when the common stock would work as well.

Plus, your comments do not address the arrowheads that nest neatly back together to show how they were cut from stock.

Again you're looking at it from the viewpoint of stock removal, when the points could have just as readily have been forged to shape with a die and with less scrap and would have nested since they were made to the same form - while of an earlier era I do know for a fact that is how the bodkin war points of the middle ages were produced in England, I've even used a reproduction dye of the type.

Of course without exact documentation (there is at least some for the forging with dyes and also for grinding) but in neither case from what I've seen is there an actual how-to so in both cases our viewpoints are based in part on speculation.

 

[LaBonte]

Now we are getting deep! :thumbsup:
I guess the next thing is a economic geography study. Use the Sheffield directories to locate the shops. Trip hammers would require power. That would be water power. If the shops are not near water, they did not have trip hammers. Even steam needs lots of water. The big banks of grinders would also need power. How common were those, say in 1800? Or was it all apprentice power then? :hmm:

Here's a start...
"This town of Sheffield is very populous and large, the streets narrow, and the houses dark and black, occasioned by the continued smoke of the forges which are always at work.
Here they make all sorts of cutlery-ware, but especially that of edge tools, knives, razors, axes etc. and nails; and here the only mill of the sort, which was in use in England for some time, was set up, for turning their grindstones. The manufacture of hard ware is ... much increased... and they talk of 30,000 men employed in the whole."
from A Tour Through the Whole Island of Great Britain by Daniel Defoe published in 1724
www.tilthammer.com - Although this site is more geared to the 19th century it has a good map of the five river system whose power was used early on by the cutlers (and others) in the Sheffield area and some info on the Huntsmen process for making crucible aka cast steel. It was this source of water power along with the local iron ore and later the particular type of heat resistant clay used in making crucible steel, that made Sheffield such an important site for cutlery.

The idea that water power was used only post 1800 is incorrect - a pretty common mis-conception, water power was used at least as early as the late middle ages (it's what ran those steel rolling mills) and I wasn't aware that this discussion was limited to the 18th Century????

And water power was not the only source in the 18th Century - steam power began being used in England as early as the 1720's and was quite widely used in the second half of the 1700's where water power was less applicable - The Newcomen Steam Engine was one of the first built http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele/newcomen.htm

The websites listed are only a genralized start, there is quite a bit more info in books that I just don't have the time or inclination to cite, but the info is out there.....

Regarding small shops - from the info I've read most were set up for doing the final work such polishing, fitting handles, etc. Off course not all tilt hammers were huge - here's a link to a steam powered one used by the US Navy circa 1811 - http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trr053.html