English Trade Knives

[rich pierce]

Keep it going boys; I'm still learning!

Trying to predict what size stock they used or whether they used dies is guesswork and that is not a bad thing. In science, we call that, "hypothesizing".

Comparing what smiths have done in the past here and recently may give us no insight into what was done in factories. As an example, the Springfield armory used very different techniques for making guns and gun parts than contemporary small shop gunsmiths.

Also using the shapes (upswept tip for example) to predict the process suggests the cutlers did not have control over the final product (it just came out that way because of the way they forged the stock). I think the reverse is likely true- that they had a model they wanted to produce then did so the most efficient way possible within the constraints of available materials and technology.

 

[pichou]

I think I have been trying to say all of those things.

Also, when I talk of modern blacksmiths, I am not referring to a few old time smiths, or a few working in museum situations, but of those who are cranking out stuff to sell in volume.

 

[crockett]

Sean, et al:
I am using a couple of different sources. The one I relied most heavily upon was an archivist in Sheffield who has written several books on the history of the trade and is a PHD and we emailed back extensively over a number of years. I started out with the "big factory" idea and it took a while for this archivist to get me around to what I have been told was the reality- sort of a cottage industry. I have also used the Sheffield Knife Book by Geoffrey Tweedale, published in Sheffield. This book claims the Sheffield Cutlery Industry dates back to the 1200's, maybe earlier. One picture in the book shows canal work through the city, indicating the wide use of water power. In the 1700's we have on p 16 " Knife blades were forged in smithies that were often in out-buildings and lean tos. With only a heath and bellows, a sticky and stock (an anvil on top of an oak stump)"
The author claims Sheffield had an economic advantage, the availability of water power and sandstone- for grinding.The big Joseph Rodger's Works is show in the 1850's. We know that by 1816 in Smith's Key that all sorts of folding knives with tools, multiple blades,locking blades, were being made. I think what we may be running into is that the Industrial Revolution in Sheffield sort of crossed over our period, in other words during the earlier times, the "Lean tos" and by the 1850's really large factories. Maybe the Indian trade knives were panned off on the smaller shops requiring less skill- I don't know.
What is small? Again, I don't know? Maybe three or four men in a shop? I am pretty much into modern knives as well as the period stuff and attend a lot of shows. One guy, a rather famous custom maker, told me he once ground out 200 blades in a day. In any event a small Sheffield shop may have been able to turn out an amazing amount of work. I have been told that some knives can be pretty much forged in just a few heats. Folks worked 16 hour days seven days a week with an hour off on Christmas to go to church. If a man in a small shop forged 50 blades a day that were sent off to the grinder and then a haft presser, a lot of knives could be produced.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I'm using two sources. I am all ears if someone has better information.

 

[pichou]

My main original print sources are

Ӣ1787 Sheffield Guide
Ӣ1797 " "

ӢCircle of the Mechanical Arts, 1813
and other similar works that describe knife making.

Modern works
ӢSite reports and overviews, like Stone, Mason, etc. etc.
ӢQuarterlys like MOFTQ, Wisconsin Archeologist, Minnesota History, etc, etc.

I have handled about 75+ original blades, and have traced about 40. My focus is definately Great Lakes, and tends to be early... almost all pre-1830.

This is the trend I see in shapes: the French knives have a parallel section between tang and tip. A few early William Parker blades copy this, and a couple even have the down-sloping tip like the french. The rest of the early Brit knives are tapered, and do not have a parallel section of their profile. The other exceptions are few, like the Hat Point knives (2). The early cross L blades are also sharply tapered. Thismark was registered to Benjamin Fenton. The later cross F blades are less sharply tapered. These are the Hiram Cutler/Furniss-Cutler-Stacey blades. Another feature of the early blades is the 3 pin holes in a line, set low on the tang. A few intact or fragment handles show that the handle was wider than the tang. An early variant is the downward bent tang. Many of these have the mark of Broomhead. Some of the earliest Brit blades are very long, but then become relatively standard in length.

Based on the number of blades I have handled, plus a number of others in reports, etc, the marks of these blades or dates from sites, etc. etc., I think it is safe to say that early blades in this region are sharply tapered and curved, have three pins set low on the handle, that handles were either tapered and faceted, or were not tapered and had an oval cross section. I believe these features are diagnostic of trade knives dating between 1760-3 and 1815-16. If anybody can do better than that, let me know.

As for regional styles, I do not buy this. I believe these are temporal, not regional. Or, due to different makers/lots. Not a premeditated marketing decision. A review of sites and dates and blade styles could verify this idea. I personally am not interested in going that far/broad.

 

[crockett]

Well we have two threads going here side by side. I'm going to re-read the Circle of the Mechanical Arts, 1813, I think I sort of glassed over it. There is a modern day custom knife maker, Ed Fowler that uses a power hammer that may be sort of similar to the trip hammer. Those trip hammers are so large I thought maybe they were only used for massive forging, such as a block of steel into steel bar, and were too crude to actually be used to forge a knife blade. The French knives being parallel means forged blades were made that way, the English must have just preferred a more tapered blade.

"Another feature of the early blades is the 3 pin holes in a line, set low on the tang."

In other words if you drew a line midway from top to bottom on the tang, the pin holes would be below that line?

"Many of these have the mark of Broomhead." Do you know the cutler who registered that mark? I wonder if that could be the marker of the scalpers with the star/Crown/crossed keys?


"As for regional styles, I do not buy this. I believe these are temporal, not regional. Or, due to different makers/lots. Not a premeditated marketing decision. A review of sites and dates and blade styles could verify this idea. I personally am not interested in going that far/broad."

If Fenton was supplying the NW Co. then what about the HBC? After the merger the HBC records show Fenton then supplied them. I have no idea who supplied the HBC prior to the merger but like you say, does it matter? it's getting beyond the area.

I think whatever was sold in the Great Lakes area simply followed the fur trade west. Same items.

 

[pichou]

Pin holes: yes, below the centerline. Very typical of what I see.

Circle: yeah, I have to re-read it too. :surrender:

Broomhead is the mark of... are you ready? Broomhead. LOL!

Bailey, William, printer in Warrington, Birmingham, and London. Bailey’s British directory; or, merchant’s and trader’s useful companion, for the year 1784, in four volumes. Comprising accurate lists of the ... The first edition. London, 1784. 233pp. Vol. 4 of 4

P. 893

Broomhead and Ward, Table Knife Cutlers, Pond-lane

Bailey, William, printer in Warrington, Birmingham, and London.. Bailey's Northern directory, or, merchant's and tradesman's useful companion, for the year 1781. ... Warrington, [1781]. 324pp.

p. 288.

Broomhead and Ward, table knife cutlers, Pond lane


Gales & Martin (Printers: Sheffield, England). A directory of Sheffield; including the manufacturers of the adjacent villages: ... Sheffield, 1787. 98pp.

p. 5.

Factors.
Broomhead, Joseph, and Benjamin, Far-gate

p. 11

Merchants.
Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Brinsworth's Orchard

p. 12
Pen and Pocket Knive: in general.

Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Brinsworth's Orchard [mark] BROOMHEAD

Broomhead, Joseph, Lamber Croft; jacks [mark] [arrow]PYL

p. 23
Razors.
Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Brinsworth's Orchard [mark] BROOMHEAD

Broomhead, Joseph, Lambert Croft [same mark as p. 12]

p. 27
Scissors, fine.
Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Brinsworth's Orchard [mark] [heart over]*[over]IH

p. 44
Table Knives, in general.
Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Brinsworth's Orchard [mark] BROOMHEAD

Broomhead and Ward, Eyre-street. [mark] L[rotated 90° next to pistol]

p. 47
Table Knives, common.

Broomhead, Benjamin and Joseph [mark] + [over open crown over]Y


The London directory for the year 1790; containing an alphabetical arrangement of the names and residences of the merchants, manufacturers and ... [London], [1790]. 172pp.

p. 32
Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Cutlers, 16 Foster-lane

The London directory for the year 1792; containing an alphabetical arrangement of the names and residences of the merchants, manufacturers, and ... [London], [1792]. 168pp.

p. 29
Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Cutlers, 16 Foster-lane, Cheapside

OK, I could go on and on, but the simple answer is,

Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Brinsworth's Orchard [mark] BROOMHEAD, who also had a office in London: Broomhead, Hinchcliffe, and Co. Cutlers, 16 Foster-lane, Cheapside

 

[pichou]

Oh, yeah, that crown and keys mark... I am still looking. No luck at all. It may be outside the city of Sheffield, after 1787, the last time the marks of neighboring cutlers were listed in the directory.

 

[LaBonte]

Trying to predict what size stock they used or whether they used dies is guesswork and that is not a bad thing

With respect the first part is speculation but the use of dies is documented - as noted I don't have the time or inclination to look up the source as I no longer have the resources to do that (I was living in Seattle at the time and had the UW's resources available) - my notes from that time were later destroyed in a flood, but the info is out there although it took a lot of research to garner it.

There is a modern day custom knife maker, Ed Fowler that uses a power hammer that may be sort of similar to the trip hammer. Those trip hammers are so large I thought maybe they were only used for massive forging, such as a block of steel into steel bar, and were too crude to actually be used to forge a knife blade.

The actual name is tilt hammer and while many were huge (25-30 tons for some) smaller ones were used as well. Mechanical trip hammers in smaller sizes came along later such as the Little Giant. Trip hammers were available in sizes ranging from 25 lbs on up to 5 tons. I've used a 3B Nazel (3 ton) and it will rattle your teeth for sure! I've also used large drop forges with dies while working in industry and they really do it to it - look up drop forging and Smith and Wesson - it's amazing how those things can take a chunk of hot steel and turn it into a forged receiver.
Here's a link to a pic of mid-20th Century Sheffield shop with a small trip hammer in the left hand corner - the whole shop looks pretty antique though.
http://www.shef.ac.uk/hawley/collection/photos.html
That site has some interesting items and would be a good resource for further info since it has a good collection and other resources.
But even the big monsters can be used for fine forging - a friend in Germany sent me a pic a while back of him using one I'll see if I can find it. But again dies were often used and in that case the bigger the better.

Some other intersting sites on Sheffield steel and cutlery albeit some are mid-late 19th Century...
http://www.simt.co.uk/abbeydale/index.html
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mossvalley/mv2/sheffield-steel-manufactures.html (check out the pic of the saw grinders)
http://www.tilthammer.com/index.html

Anyway speaking of knives I've got a couple to get out of the oven - later.........

 

[crockett]

Thanks Pichou and LaBonte- lots of stuff to check out.

 

[bajabuc]

My former nextdoor neighbor built a small falling trip hammer that was powered by gravity and used a homemade spring to "bounce it back" the trip locked and it was ready to use again. No welding...all hand forged parts and it disassembled into parts that weighed no more than 30 pounds each. Biggest problem was he'd start using it at 3AM and our bedroom was 10 feet away. Very noisy. He forged me a froe and a draw knife with it....hmmm...wonder where they went?