enough power??

[Snow on the Roof]

snow on the roof,
i figured it was a pretty well asked question...
i had a deer take a step on me last year with a bow, got lucky found it about two hrs. later....i know it happens.
by the way, i got that snow on the roof thing going on too!
i have family in down Mt.Vernon, where abouts are you?

Melin, we are a little north of your family in Crawford county. Flat Rock Illinois to be specific. I've had the snow since I was 40, today its more like a blizzard :rotf: ...then again I have more hair than my three younger brothers combined so you'll never hear me complain...

A couple of thoughts on the topic; I see .50 as a good choice for most deer, .54 even better but I've never understood the idea that a certain caliber is too big. A deer can't be too dead but he certainly can be not dead enough :hmm:. Someone mentioned a .45 worked great when he had snow to track in...trouble is you can't always rely on there being snow. As I said before under ideal conditions a .45 is fine but ideal doesn't happen very often. Use the biggest bore size appropriate for your desired style of rifle with .50 being minimum.

John

 

[runnin lead]

You can go to a 7/8 barrel with that & go .50
I just went through the decision myself,I went
13/16 &.36 & the Vincent won over an Ohio.
Mine will not be historicly or period corect ,
I will be building it how I want it , with a hooked breach & wedge instead of pin & it will be a flintlock.
This will make cleaning EZ & make it a switch barrel rifle, next decision will be what barrel next.
Now if TOTW or J Star would only get the breachplug in ! They are the only 2 places I have found that cary a 13/16 -7/8 flint type hooked breachplug.
I ordered a Rice .36 radius bottom rifled barrel & a Vincent grade III maple yesterday , the stock will be 2-3 weeks & the barrel 10 - 12 weeks,
hopefully I can get a couple of plugs by then.
It took me over 6 weeks to decide .36 over .32 & Vincent over Ohio.
I can fully understand the decisions you are going through now.

 

[Stumpkiller]

.54

 

[hanshi]

I've taken lots of deer with both .45 and .50 from a few feet to well over 100 yards. A .45 Lancaster is my deer rifle of choice and is fine up to around 100 yards. I'd say, then, that the .45 is a realistic minimum and not an unreasonable choice. For distances longer than that a .50 is better. I'm talking prb, too, not conicals.

 

[jethro224]

Head and spine shots drop them NOW! EVERYTHING else takes more then 10 yards.

:bull:

Now, I'm not the most experienced hunter, having only killed 6 deer with PRB. But, of those 6, 2 dropped within 10 yards. One in 4 steps, one in it's tracks. Both were double-lung ONLY hits.

I don't expect that kind of results. I expect a 30-100 yard trail. But I'll take them DRT's whenever I can get 'em.

 

[roundball]

Agree...didn't want to start anything by challenging it but at least in my experience, its been common enough over the years to have a deer drop in its tracks from a round ball that's its no longer note worthy.

I'd summarize my experiences like this...1-2 out of 10 drop where they're standing...1-2 out of 10 drop within a few body lengths...the rest sprint 25-35 yards and drop within sight.

 

[mykeal]

given that the hunter is a generally "good shot" and the distance is known, what caliber PRB gun would you consider minimumly adequite for deer out to 100 yds. under typical hunting conditions.

With respect, wrong question. You don't design a gun based on 'minimum' requirements; you pick the toughest condition under which you're willing to take a shot and design a gun that's both necessary and sufficient to make the kill under those conditions. It will thus certainly be adequate for easier conditions, and as has been mentioned, 'more dead' is adequate, so too much gun doesn't really factor into it.

100 yards, quartering presentation, large buck whitetail, prb (Toby Bridges notwithstanding): .50 cal, 80 gr. I would take that shot; I would not take it with a .45.

 

[Dphar]

I would not dispute the "drop at the shot" experiences related.
However, in *MY* experience it is rare and is contrary to my experience in Montana.
40 yards of travel is typical for heart lung shots.
I have had them go as far as 200 with a 50 or 54 with "perfect hits".
I can count on one hand the number of deer I have shot with a RB and had drop to the shot and I have probably shot at least 70 with a RB (never did a count). I shot a WT doe at 300 yards (lasered I had to belly crawl 50 yards to get this close) with a 6.5x55 Mauser with 140 gr at about 2700, a very capable deer killer for long range freezer filling. Bullet broke the upper leg bone and nicked the top of the heart just behind the arteries then passed out of the deer. Deer ran about 50-60 yards and piled up just before getting out of view. There was a buck hanging around looking her over and I feared if the doe was not dead he might get her up if I spooked him. So I waited till he moved off 50 yards or so. As I approached I saw she was not on her side and then at about 50 yards she raised her head and I then head shot her.

Below is the heart of a Mule Deer doe shot at about 40 yards. She took a .662 pure lead ball started by 140 gr of FF Swiss at the base of the throat. MV about 1600. Impact something like 1400+ I would guess. Ball did not pass through producing something over 30" of penetration.

She turned 90 degrees and ran 55 long steps before falling. I could see the blood pouring from the wound and her run was obviously that of a very hurt deer. But she did not fall down.

Blood trail.

Ball before and after.

Entrance would was about 1" in diameter in the hide and well over .662 in the front of the brisket.

Now we much consider the deers mind set when shot.
The doe had seen me but did not know what I was, we can assume she was then on "red alert" deer that are aroused tend to run farther.
A friend shot a doe last year, species unknown, at 120 yards with a 45, ball was a pass though breaking ribs on both sides and the deer dropped at the shot. She raised her her head as he approached and he shot her in the head. He was hunting with a swivel breech and did not stop to reload.
There is NO consistency.
I shot this deer in 08 with the 16 bore, 90 yards, center of the shoulder, no bones struck other than maybe a rib or two. Deer dropped to the shot and died before I reloaded and approached.

I am not in anyway disputing the claims that deer are dropping tot he shot. But I feel that it can mislead some who start hunting with a PRB and the deer run off then they think the RB is deficient.

They run off in most cases no matter WHAT they are shot with. This from myself and some people I hunt with who with our own kills and that of people we were guiding amounts to hundreds of deer. Consensus is that they almost always run off or at least stay on their feet.

IIRC Sir William Drummond Stewart stated that it was easier to knock down an elk than a deer and he was using a 20 bore rifle.

Dan

 

[Stumpkiller]

More mass on target wins every time..you can't beat physics.

Mass and velocity. And since black powder is limited and we can produce similar velocities in various deer-sized calibers the 27% more mass of the .54 over the .50 is what sways my opinion. .58 or .62 even better, but I consider the .54 to be the optimal all-around caliber for a whitetail rifle in my woods and with my hunting style.

Use what works for you.

And to the post about head shots - the original question was for 100 yard shots. If you can konk a live (and able to move) deer in the head regularly and reliably with an iron iron sighted flintlock at 100 yards you should be on our Olympic Shooting Team. I don't trust my reflexes and ignition timing that I can get a shot off before the deer might move it's head. I shoot for lungs. Maybe NY deer are just jumpier but the deer hereabouts keep their heads on a swivel continually.

 

[ron ward]

mykeal...
you are right, one does not design a gun around minimum requirements. one does not hunt squirrels with 12 ga. slugs either. if a munimum is established, "entirely adequite", can be arrived upon confidently, it's called " the design process". i've hunted deer long enough with gun and bow to know i don't do it with a .22, but there's no need to do it with .460 wheatherby, either. it's pretty obvious that one doesn't hunt with a gun incapable of making clean kills in bad conditions, unless that person is one of those who think they need the latest and greatest magnum overblaster that just came out....i tend to ignore advice from people like that, knowing they probably have no hunting skills and a subscription to "Feild and Stream" magazine.
obviously bigger is better, if i wanted bigger i'd build a hawken. my quest is to not build a hawken, there are no buffaloe or grizzlies in northern wisconsin and vincents were built to deal with game that was pretty much, most commonly hunted today.

 

[Tom Compton]

Your parameters specify minimum and 100 yards. My response is .50 cal.

I have used .40 out to 65 and that was very marginal (IMO you should achieve pass through). As a .45 ball is only 30 gr or so heavier than the .40 I would not feel confident at 100 yards.

Good Luck.
TC

 

[hanshi]

Agree...didn't want to start anything by challenging it but at least in my experience, its been common enough over the years to have a deer drop in its tracks from a round ball that's its no longer note worthy.

I'd summarize my experiences like this...1-2 out of 10 drop where they're standing...1-2 out of 10 drop within a few body lengths...the rest sprint 25-35 yards and drop within sight.

This has been about my same ratio as well. I'd call it "normal results".

 

[hanshi]

I understand fully what you're saying and truly believe that you cannot predict what a deer will do when hit. The results I posted were generally what I've experienced. I can recall around three, however, that ran some 60 - 75 yards. I hunt in the woods and maybe it's just simply more difficult for deer to go as far in the few seconds they're on their feet. I think hunting conditions do have a lot to do with it as well as the "mind set" of the deer and (there is empirical evidence for this) whether the animal is inhaling or exhaling. This last, is a principle underlying my professional teaching (humans, not deer) for decades. Interestingly, even odd things such as the position of the tongue, etc, can determine whether you are strong-at that moment-or weak.

I believe we are in agreement on the impossibility of predicting how far a deer will run or if it will drop DRT. I've had them drop in their footie prints from a .22 Hornet, .45 prb, .41 and .44 mag, etc. I've also had them run and then stand still as if nothing happened when hit (both lungs) with a 45/70. I also trailed a small buck half a mile through the woods only to find him down but still kicking; a marginal hit with a .250 Savage.

I'd say #1 is shot placement. #2 is the physiological condition/attitude/etc of the deer. And #3 is the round you hit them with; this is my arrangement of importance.

IMHO no one has been significantly off the mark in these posts. It is simply much too difficult to compare our experiences based on what we determine to be "the minimum" caliber for 100 yards. It is just up to the individual to decide-based on hunting conditions plus-where to draw the line. Many of you know more than I do so all I aim to do is throw out some "things to ponder". :grin: :grin:

 

[tg]

I do not shoot to that range now but when I was and was shooting rifles I felt that a .50 was a good choice for a 100 yds shot, I felt the smaller cals would work but the larger ball was a better choice.I will add the mandetory "put it in the right place" caveat as well.

 

[roundball]

Agree...didn't want to start anything by challenging it but at least in my experience, its been common enough over the years to have a deer drop in its tracks from a round ball that's its no longer note worthy.

I'd summarize my experiences like this...1-2 out of 10 drop where they're standing...1-2 out of 10 drop within a few body lengths...the rest sprint 25-35 yards and drop within sight.

The variables of many thread discussions are why I've learned to include words like "in my experience" or "in my opinion". Too many times we see 'absolute', 'across the board' statements made which suggest that's the only way something can possible happen...without even considering the differences in game being hunted, distances, hunting conditions, powder charges, etc, etc, etc.

And it soon becomes clear that they are usually only based on the limited experience of that one individual...or worse...no experience at all, just arm chair theory or repeating what's he/she has read in other similar posts...interestingly these same individuals making these claims never seem to have any photos of any game taken.

IMO, the only real 'across the board' statement that can be applied to all hunting is that there really aren't any 'across the board' statements that apply to all hunting.

:grin:

 

[ron ward]

thanks everyone, for all the input!
believe, i know how tenacious deer are and i am a disciplined hunter/shot. i thank my 41 yrs of bow hunting and only loosing one deer for that. ironicly, it was the one year i wanted to try real light and fast arrows.... i went into the woods with the thought that it was not right, as well.
well, despite correctness, i'm pretty sure it will be a .50x7/8x36 bbl....still slim enough to look like a proper vincent, definately allot slimmer than a typical hawkins and .50 should be good for the longer shot. funny, all this time and i end up with my first notion about what to use, anyway.
now i just have to find someone that has one!.

 

[ron ward]

stumpkiller,
the "head-shot" isn't even worth considering. that's exactly the kind of post i tend to ignore....pure foolishness.
i'm not saying it can't be done. i shot a doe right between the lookers at 175 yds once. with a 6.5-06 ackley improved that would shoot 1-1/2 inch groups at 200 yds. that's not a blackpowder gun! i was basicly busted, she was looking right at me from across a river when i touched it off from a nice solid rest. there's no way i'd try that, even given a good rest and at 50 yds with a BP gun.

 

[mykeal]

mykeal...
you are right, one does not design a gun around minimum requirements. one does not hunt squirrels with 12 ga. slugs either. if a munimum is established, "entirely adequite", can be arrived upon confidently, it's called " the design process". i've hunted deer long enough with gun and bow to know i don't do it with a .22, but there's no need to do it with .460 wheatherby, either. it's pretty obvious that one doesn't hunt with a gun incapable of making clean kills in bad conditions, unless that person is one of those who think they need the latest and greatest magnum overblaster that just came out....i tend to ignore advice from people like that, knowing they probably have no hunting skills and a subscription to "Feild and Stream" magazine.
obviously bigger is better, if i wanted bigger i'd build a hawken. my quest is to not build a hawken, there are no buffaloe or grizzlies in northern wisconsin and vincents were built to deal with game that was pretty much, most commonly hunted today.

I think you need to go back and reread my post. Nowhere did I make the statements you are suggesting with references to 'magnum overblaster' and '.460 Weatherby'. And your description of the design process - starting with minimum requirements and designing for 'adequate' - is foreign to my 40 years experience in engineering. It simply isn't done that way.

 

[ron ward]

appearently, your 40 yrs in engineering didn't teach you that you must establish what is needed and what is not needed before an adequite solution can be found. if "adequite" doesn't describe "enough power to reliably make an occasional 100 yd. shot, ..... what word does? just what question would you ask to find out what people generally think would be an "adequite" bore for the conditions spec'd?. the question simply sets the low limit for, oooops, there it is again....an "adequite" range of RB diameters. in the case of currently available ML'er bore diameters, the upper limmit is about as obvious as can be and relatively safe to assume that they would most certainly work, but thier size is not absolutely needed.... if i understand that, surely,... any engineer with 40 yrs experience could understand that.

 

[Mike Brooks]

All the deer I have shot except for two were shot with a .62 fowler loaded with 60gr.2ff and a bare .600 ball. This load probably wasn't moving faster that 850fps or so. The longest run was probably 50 yards. Most just fell over dead or flew in the air with a flip or spin and landed on the ground twitching. Never had to track, just duck the smoke and watch what happened or watch were they ran to.
My first deer I shot with a .50 TC loaded with a massive 110gr 3fff. 125 yard shot running full speed straight away. The ball hit at the base of the neck and traveled to the base of the brain...LIGHTS OUT! Immediately pilled up on his nose DEAD. The ball traveled probably 18" or better right along his neck vertebrae. 227 lbs field dressed.
The last deer I shot was with a .45 loaded with I believe 60gr 3fff. Spine shot. Fell over on the spot, probably a 20 yard shot.
For deer hunting in the midwest I'd recommend a .54 for an all round gun you might use for other things as well. For a dedicated deer gun I'd choose a .62 rifle. Shots more than 50 yards in Illinois or Iowa are rare.