enough power??

[MSW]

i agree with Roundball: no free lunch, no "sure thing."

so, as i also concur with Mike, (as the Boy Scouts would say) 'be prepared.' ... actually for a Vincent, i would go with a minimum of fifty cal, but for a dedicated deer gun, that .62 is looking better and better.

(p.s. by comparison, vermont deer are pretty wimpy next to the monster deer you guys get)

 

[Mike Brooks]

(p.s. by comparison, vermont deer are pretty wimpy next to the monster deer you guys get)

It's CORN MAN CORN! :haha:

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I use a .50 and prb for doe tags but have taken horns with it. 100 yds max for me and that a standing profile shot. once I shot a running doe through light brush at about 75yds, won't do that again it went a long ways from a too-far back and high impact. took me 2 hours to find it.

 

[Headhunter]

Everybody is beating the same drum for favor of the .50 myself included. Let me shed a different light on calibers and how they perform in a Competition standpoint.

I shoot competetivley with the Missouri Offhand Rifle Association and have been fortunate enough to do quite well. I shoot with some F-I-N-E FINE shooters and they all have their preferences and arguments on what caliber is best and why they shoot what they shoot and I see good and not so good in each. They all shoot anything between a .40 and a 58.

What I am getting at is this.... You go to a station and look out across there and you see a 10x10" going hanging suspended at 125 yards.

The .50 steps up and shoots and dead centers it. There is no doubt he hit it.

The .58 dead centers it and almost blows it off the crosswires. No doubt what so ever that he hit it.

The .40 touches off a perfect shot and dead centers it and it does not move. You might hear a little "Tink" when it hits.

.45's are a little better.

Point being,

At mid range, those smaller balls do wonderful. Very little correction for elevaton, they are very accurate and blazing fast.

But past 75 yards, the bigger calibers 50 on up shine. You have to have big balls to shoot deer out to or beyond 100 yards.

Headhunter

 

[Dphar]

thanks everyone, for all the input!
believe, i know how tenacious deer are and i am a disciplined hunter/shot. i thank my 41 yrs of bow hunting and only loosing one deer for that. ironicly, it was the one year i wanted to try real light and fast arrows.... i went into the woods with the thought that it was not right, as well.
well, despite correctness, i'm pretty sure it will be a .50x7/8x36 bbl....still slim enough to look like a proper vincent, definately allot slimmer than a typical hawkins and .50 should be good for the longer shot. funny, all this time and i end up with my first notion about what to use, anyway.
now i just have to find someone that has one!.

You will not like a 50 caliber Vincent much. The rifle is simply not designed for calibers over 45. The buttock is just too small and the buttplate too pointy.
Most originals had heavier barrels than 7/8" and were smaller bored.
This one has a 1" barrel (and a Hawken Breech).

Dan

 

[Headhunter]

Dan,

That is a great point you made there Dan. Rifle weight, barrel size and buttplate width and shape play a KEY factor for an enjoyable rifle.

A 7 pound 58 would probably kill a normal man with a 100 grain charge, or at least rip his face off.

Where as a .36 Hawken 1" would be a LUG to carry around. I have a buddy that has a 1" .36 Hawken and it wears him out squirrel huntin!!!

Headhunter

 

[Dphar]

stumpkiller,
the "head-shot" isn't even worth considering. that's exactly the kind of post i tend to ignore....pure foolishness.
i'm not saying it can't be done. i shot a doe right between the lookers at 175 yds once. with a 6.5-06 ackley improved that would shoot 1-1/2 inch groups at 200 yds. that's not a blackpowder gun! i was basicly busted, she was looking right at me from across a river when i touched it off from a nice solid rest. there's no way i'd try that, even given a good rest and at 50 yds with a BP gun.

50 yards with a rest would not worry me with a flintlock rifle that shot like it should. But 175 even with a scoped rifle, nope. If you zero it with one rest then shoot from another it can make a difference in impact. Not as pronounced as with a heave recoiling low velocity BPCR but it still likely to shoot to a different point of impact.

This said, head shots are only good if the range is close. I have only done maybe 4-5 head/neck shots (aside from a few coup de grâce). I missed one a couple of years ago at about 30-40 yards but I think the deer moved at the flash in the pan. I was sure of the shot but hit the base of the ear and the deer herd crossed a property line. Not even any blood on the snow. But one doe had a ear that was not very perky when I got them in sight again from about 400 yards. Yes, it surely would have been a kill if I had taken a chest shot, but I could not see that part of the deer and she "had" me when I saw her. I think she ducked the shot as they sometimes do with arrows.
16 gauge ball so I know it missed the bone. The others were all successes. But I don't try it unless the range is short and I seldom have a rest for close shot since I have to go looking for deer, they don't come to me except on extremely rare occasions.
My dad used headshots a lot on deer and elk, he liked them and the ranges were not always short. But he was a better game shot than most by a wide margin, not worth a hoot on inanimate objects though. He don't hunt as much as he did.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Dan,

That is a great point you made there Dan. Rifle weight, barrel size and buttplate width and shape play a KEY factor for an enjoyable rifle.

A 7 pound 58 would probably kill a normal man with a 100 grain charge, or at least rip his face off.

Where as a .36 Hawken 1" would be a LUG to carry around. I have a buddy that has a 1" .36 Hawken and it wears him out squirrel huntin!!!

Headhunter

My 38" 1" x 54 caliber weighs about 10 pounds.

The 16 bore is about the same. The swivel breech is heavier but don't know how much.
I carried it about 4 miles the day I killed this deer, including 1/2 mile drag in about a foot of snow over fairly rough terrain and I am approaching what many would think of as geezerhood, am out of shape and weigh 30 pounds more than I did 40 years ago

People that complain about a 10 pound gun being too heavy need to get out and walk more during the summer. An hours fast walk 3-5 times a week will make a vast difference.
A light gun is impossible to shoot accurately offhand if your heart rate and breathing are up much.
Our forefathers were smaller than we are in general and carried heavier guns as a matter of course. Some buffalo hunters used to carry TWO heavy rifles, 14-16 pounds, 100 rounds or more of heavy ammo and a some water when hunting buffalo. Yeah on foot.
So when someone gets worn out with a 10 pound+- rifle I think that someone is a LONG way from being in any kind of shape.

It is possible to make rifles in large calibers that are user friendly. But not with Amercian stock designs much after 1780-90. The British sporting rifle of the same period could be made 8-9 pounds in a 69 caliber (14 bore) and shoot a ball over 1 ounce in weight at 1600 and still be tolerable.
The rifle shoots a one ounce ball at about 1600 fps and will not injure the shooter unless shot a lot from the bench.

But the typical Hawken buttstock/buttplate would be miserable on the same rifle. These are really only good for about 54 caliber.
The "squirrel rifle" stocks, the Leman etc are pretty miserable much over 45 caliber. A good friend had a Leman in 50 IIRC years ago that was miserable to shoot even with a 1" barrel.
This rifle is a Leman, actually a Leman stamped lock dated 1840 and marked on the barrel "Connestoga Rifle Works". This was Leman's "low quality line and is 54 caliber. Barrel is just under 1" and is about 39" long.

Its a "squirrel rifle" buttstock.
The early longrifle with the heavy buttstock something like the Schriet rifle will handle recoil well. But this basic stock design was dead by the 1780s with most makers.

Dan

 

[Little Wattsy]

Agree...didn't want to start anything by challenging it but at least in my experience, its been common enough over the years to have a deer drop in its tracks from a round ball that's its no longer note worthy.

I'd summarize my experiences like this...1-2 out of 10 drop where they're standing...1-2 out of 10 drop within a few body lengths...the rest sprint 25-35 yards and drop within sight.

This has been about my same ratio as well. I'd call it "normal results".

:haha: Prehaps "normal" on jackrabbits .... :applause: :applause:

 

[larry wv]

Have killed several hundred deer. Not counting a shoulder, neck, spine (you get the idea) Hit. NONE have dropped to the ground dead. This is bow, pistol, cap and ball revolver, 12 ga slug, most common rife calibers, 45-58 black powder prb and conicals. They have ran 30-125 yards regardles of the caliber. Lung shots or heart. With a few of the longest runs includeing the 125 yard run from a heart shot. Not calling anyone a liar. I sure must have some terrible luck :idunno: . Don,t think I will play the lottery. Larry

 

[hanshi]

:grin: Okay, okay, so deep South deer don't run quite a big as the pampered, corn fed primadonnas in snow country, but seldom are they a light load on a belt hook :idunno: . Our bunny rabbits are large, fearsome creatures, though! :haha:

Offhand I can recall 4 deer I hit in the neck. Needless to say they fell in their footie prints. I've also had heart & lung shot deer run a little ways; it only takes a few seconds. I've also double lunged deer with prb and also with centerfires that DRT'd. Few (prb) ran out of sight and fewer out of hearing. I will also say that 3 of the 4 neckshot deer were hit there, ahem, by accident. I'd aimed at the rib cage and they moved (my story & I'm sticking to it); I surely can't be that bad a shot. Honest, I've collected a goodly number of DRT deer! :thumbsup:

 

[SDSmlf]

Hate to admit it but I am coming up on 40 years hunting experience ”“ and along with experience comes opinions based on those experiences.

1. In general, have never really bought into the mythical qualities of the PRB that many others have observed, however, it has and will continue to put deer on the ground.

2. ”˜Typical hunting conditions’ ”“ I currently hunt in three states. SC, where a long shot is 75 yards, foliage is thick and a typical mature doe will field dress under 80 pounds. In upstate NY, 160 pound field dressed does are not uncommon with opportunities of well over 100 yards on occasion. NC deer size and shot distance depends on area of the state. I would assume that typical North-Central ”˜Wiscinsin’ deer would be large bodied in open woodlots or farm country.

3. ”˜Smallest caliber that will ”¦do the job’ ”“ Broadside? Quartering? Texas brain shot? I hunt with a variety of 50 and 54 caliber guns depending where and what I am hunting, however if limited to one caliber with a PRB I would carrying a 54 hands down. Can load it up or down for whatever the job is.

4. Back when I first started hunting in NYS, the area I hunted required you to use a shotgun, a muzzleloader (>45 cal with a PRB) or a pistol. Shotgun slug technology at the time was pitiful ”“ a 5 gallon bucket was safe at 100 yards. Pistol hunting was basically done with open-site six-guns ”“ that 5 gallon bucket was getting hit maybe 2 out every 3 shots ”“ but still not happy after have started hunting in PA with an ’06 that at the time made anything larger than a cottontail an easy target at 100 yards. So I became a muzzleloader hunter. Put together a 45 caliber CVA Kentucky rifle (two piece stock) and at the ”˜rifle range’ behind the house (fallen tree as a bench and standing dead one as a backstop) a paper plate at the 100 yard mark was not a challenge. Soon after the season opened had a clear shot at a good sized buck quartering towards me. Had a fence post for a solid rest and held on the point of his near shoulder ”¦ heard the smack of that PRB hit ”“ could not have been any easier. Only being a few minutes from the house, went back to change clothes (light dragging clothes) and reloaded that CVA. Had to be about an hour before I got back to the spot where that deer stood when I hit him. No deer but plenty of blood. Well to cut to the punch line, if not for the fresh snow on the ground and my youthful energy, I never would have caught up to that deer over 6 hours later and finished him off with a shot in the neck. Autopsy proved interesting ”“ that 45 caliber RB, though pushed to around 2000 fps (according to Lyman’s Blackpowder Handbook) busted up the shoulder (hit right where I aimed) but never made it into the chest cavity ”“ actually found it lodged in the shoulder. The next day we walked off the distance of the shot at 135 long steps ”“ a few more that our ”˜rifle range’ distance of 115 (turned out to be a bit more that the 100 yards we thought it to be). Put together a 54 caliber TC before the next deer season and did not recover another RB from the next half a dozen or so deer I shot ”“ all pass throughs.

5. My current limits for PRB based above and other personnel ”˜mess-ups’ and successes
”¢ 45 cal ”“ keep to 50 yards with clear shot at chest or neck.
”¢ 50 cal ”“ 75 up to 100 yards under perfect (not normal) conditions ”“ solid rest, open ground, broadside.
”¢ 54 cal ”“ 125 yards with a solid rest ”“ beyond will be using something other than a PRB.

6. As far as DRT ”“ only seems to happen if something real important to the animal keeping its legs under itself is destroyed (no matter what the weapon) ”“ the spine or brain. Otherwise anywhere from 10 to 100 yards or so, although most are down within 30 to 50.

 

[pchwcf50110]

as teenagers when my friend and i started ML hunting deer with PRB's in .45 and .50 cal we had the same type of experiences as SDSmlf. we didn't know any better and shot deer at any angle just like we were used to doing with a .270 wcf. lots of long recoveries and chases. we had kind of soured on PRB's and switched to maxiballs. then we ran into no expansion/terrible blood trails when hitting only ribs were hit. but we got the penetration for the angled shots. after entering college i stumpled upon a .58 T/C barrel (i had a .50 Renegade) in a gunshop and my friend bought a never started .54 Renegade kit at a garage sale. after much cajoling i convinced him we should try PRB's again. Eureka! we had great success no matter what shot was offered. blood trails improved on broadside shots and the chest cavity was easily penetrated on quatering towards shots. looking back it was our misunderstanding of smaller PRB's that lead to our earlier experiences but to this day i still hunt deer/big game with a .58 and up when shooting PRB's.

 

[David W.]

given that the hunter is a generally "good shot" and the distance is known, what caliber PRB gun would you consider minimumly adequite for deer out to 100 yds. under typical hunting conditions. i'm not looking for advice to "just get a .54 so you don't have to worry about it", i'm looking for what you would think is the smallest caliber that will obviously work at shorter, more common ranges, but given the above conditions, will do the job reliably if the opportunity presents itself. there are many spots that i hunt where these widely variable ranges exhist.
my state mandates .40 rifled, but i see that as good for sitting in a tree or blind with relativly close shots being the norm and maybe just a bit chancy sitting where it is open enough that a 100 yd. shot very well might present itself as well....convince me otherwise!

I feel the .40 caliber will work just fine, but that is my opinion. Here where I live, it's difficult to get a long shot because of all the hills and trees.

OK, I shoot a .62, but that is one of the barrels I had to work with when built my rifle, already had a .610 bullet mould, and love the big BOOM it makes. Just to honest, my rifle is a bit of an over kill. But if taken into account, it has a 36" long, 1" ATF barrel and is not heavy at all to carry all day.

 

[hanshi]

When it' all done and said, I just take a rifle out for the day based on how I feel, the last time I fired it, phase of the moon, etc. Caliber (legal) is a secondary issue. I like and trust the .45 but it's my dedicated deer rifle because I just love that little Lancaster. If it was .40 or .54 I'd still favor it.

 

[John Wasmuth]

I like my .45, or my .50, or the .58, or on some occasions, my .32. But if the question is:
100 yards
broadside
calm day and ideal conditions
I'd use the .45.

If its the same conditions but at 40 yards, the .32.
Problem is, it just amazes me that deer just dont read the play book.