Factory Built guns in the Big Matches?

Just was sitting here reading another thread about factory guns(TC,Lyman,etc.) and got to wondering how these guns do in the bigger matches around the country I am guessing that some shoters do use them,I only shoot locally and for recreation and hunting,I have both factory and semi custom guns,thanks in advance

 

[Le Grand]

Those factory guns can do quite well, depending on the shooter.

 

[blacksmithman64]

Back about 10 years ago, I'd put my T/C up against anything. Cain't see too good no more, so I just shoot fer fun...I'm a big believer in "its the shooter, not the gun" :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

It depends on the match, and the ranges chosen for the shoot. At local matches, the factory guns do well. You don't see a lot of them at Friendship, at the National shoots, however. When you do, you note after market barrels, and other modifications that have been done to the guns.

 

[cowpoke1955]

I agree with the others, it's the shooter. I have shot in several local matches with my Lyman Great Plains and Pedersoli Blue Ridge against guys with custom built rifles. Have to admit, they were some fine looking rifles, but I was able to hold my own against them. Sort of like a fancy Weatherby and a plain jane Savage. The Weatherby looks nice, but the Savage will shoot just as good.

 

[Swampman]

I've never seen a factory gun win a match, and I've been to a lot of them.

 

[boar]

Where TC missed the boat was they waited too long before they made their Rounball I-66 twist barrels. I shot against guns that had Green Mountain barrels in Hawken stocks. They changed the threads on their breech-plugs so they wouldn't fit the GM, then you could only get a breech-plug installed at the factory for a TC. Dilly

 

[TennesseeJed]

You see quite a few T/Cs at the Alvin York shooting match, but most of the top shooters there use guns/barrels built by Paul Griffith.

 

[MikeChapin]

I have seen a lot of production guns win matches. It's the shooter more than it is the rifle. That being said those rifles were Lymans, T/Cs and CVAs and some Dixies. I have never seen a match won by one of the cheapo imports that were so prevalent in the late 70s and 80s.

I won a lot of matches with a CVA Mountain Rifle back in the days when I shot well.

Most people get started with production rifles. When they start getting good they will usually get a custom built that fits them a little better. If they go to flint, they generally go with a quality lock and barrel that will be found in a custom built. The T/C and Lyman locks are fine but a well tuned Chambers, Davis or L&R usually do better.

 

[arquebus]

In MLAIC 'International Muzzleloading' competition, many shooters win medals with factory-made guns in the events that allow replicas. Along with some original & custom-built repro guns I also compete with a Euroarms 'Zouave', a Pedersoli 'Mortimer' pistol, a Hege-Siber percussion pistol, & a Pietta C&B Remington revolver & they are all very competitive.

 

[trent/OH]

At the National Matches at Friendship, Match 111 is "Off The Shelf". That is, un-modified factory rifles. Not a lot of people shoot it, because most riflemen there are interested in Aggregate Matches. Nonetheless, in Match 111 if you don't shoot a 49, you won't even be in the running. And usually it is decided amongst the 50 scores by the number of X rings.

By the way, no rifle has ever won a match. It's of course the shooter who wins. If I shot the best rifle in the world, I'd do little better than mediocre in the National Shoots. And a great shot could take my factory rifle and put me to shame.

 

[roundball]

Yes, and as a side note, T/C actually made a special run of .40cal caplock Hawkens back during the mid 90's, called the Cleland Match Rifle...

 

[Tom Compton]

Trent and others are correct, it is the shooter - after a certain minimum level of equipment is in play. An old saying in our family is that you can't enter plow horse in the Kentucky Derby and hope to compete.

Once that minimum level of equipment is achieved, it is the shooter that wins or places lower. ESPECIALLY in off hand matches, shooter is most important.

But then the better shooter, as mentioned in earlier posts, has his own ideas about style, weight, balance, sights, etc and blends it all to a custom. Result is that most of the accomplished shooters wind up with custom rifles and so most winning rifles are customs.

TC

 

[bob308]

i used a factory .50 gpr bought at a yard sale for 2 years. won a lot of matchs with it. then i put a .40 cal barrel on it and won a lot more. not because the .40 shot better but because it used less lead and powder. which ment i could shoot more which ment my scores went up.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Never have seen a factory gun win anything at Friendship. In fact the only time you see them being shot there is by newcomers. This is especially true when it comes to flint guns, you don't stand a chance.

 

[Dphar]

In MLAIC 'International Muzzleloading' competition, many shooters win medals with factory-made guns in the events that allow replicas. Along with some original & custom-built repro guns I also compete with a Euroarms 'Zouave', a Pedersoli 'Mortimer' pistol, a Hege-Siber percussion pistol, & a Pietta C&B Remington revolver & they are all very competitive.

There is a lot of difference in using a copy of an original in a match that requires this and trying to shoot something like a T/C Hawken against a 40 or 44" barreled traditional Kentucky offhand.
The matches that allow replicas of originals will generally have very similar guns shooting against each other. A 1861 Springfield and a British Rifle musket are not significantly different for example.

The "modernized" factory guns tend to have "modern" ergonomics and have the offhand characteristics of a modern bolt gun, poor to awful.
The traditional guns tend to hold better offhand, have a longer sight radius, a longer barrel tends to dampen the wiggles and wobbles and it probably has a better barrel for the purpose.
While many of the factory guns may have barrels that shoot very well the overall design can be the deciding factor unless shooting off the bench.


Dan

 

[longcruise]

I've never seen a factory gun win a match, and I've been to a lot of them.

I've won quite a few matches with TC .50, .54 and .45 and a few more with a Lyman GPR with the original barrel and later with a GM drop-in. Have also been beat by quite a few plain old factory rifles.

The best of shooters can't do well with an inaccurate rifle and worst of shooters can't do well with the most inherently accurate rifle.

 

[flaming canvas]

Didn't see any mention of Uberti rifles in any of the posts. They are some excellent of the shelf weapons. I have shot 2 inch bench rest groups at 100 yards with mine.

 

[MikeChapin]

Didn't see any mention of Uberti rifles in any of the posts. They are some excellent of the shelf weapons. I have shot 2 inch bench rest groups at 100 yards with mine.

My bad. In addition to the Mountain Rifle I have also used and still use an Uberti Santa Fe. I have used it to win many matches. I used it to shoot the only 50 2X I have ever shot on an offhand 25 yard six bull.

 

[Tumblernotch]

After reading all the posts, I have to put my two shillings in. Some factory guns are well made and shoot good in the hands of a marksman. And no matter how well made a gun is, if the shooter can't hit a bull in the a&% with a bass fiddle, it's worthless.

Since I've started shooting chunk gun matches, I've paid more attention to one thing than I ever have before: Consistency. This goes for all types of shooting. You take out as many variables as possible. This is where the custom barrels and locks, triggers and fitted stocks play a big part. When you marry the proper twist and rifling depth with your load, have a good lock that consistently throws fire or busts caps, a trigger that trips the sear without causing pull-off, you have eliminated many of those variables. And just as important, the fit of the stock and the sights. If the stock doesn't fit the shooter, he's likely to be uncomfortable and actually straining just to get his eyes lined up with the sights. And he needs to have his sights properly spaced both from his eye as well as from each other to get a proper sight picture. And lastly, many shooters believe they have to have a heavy load to do the job. That may be alright when hunting grizzlies, but not targets (except maybe very long range). Here you have to deal with recoil which will definitely cause anticipation at each shot and will cause flinching.

So, in other words, you may shoot good with a factory gun, but you'll shoot gooder with a custom gun. Without major modifications you can't meet the above requirements with a factory gun. If you do these things to an off-the-shelf rifle, you no longer have a factory gun, but a semi-custom.

That being said, it still boils down to the shooter no matter what he shoots. You can reduce all the variables with your weapon, but you still have to deal with the flaws or variables with the shooter. Like any other sport, you have to condition yourself and learn all the skills of shooting, reading light and wind, consistent gun handling, &c. I think this is harder than getting my weapon ready. When I shanked a shot the other day I said that there was something not right with my rifle. A buddy of mine said that it was the loose nut behind the trigger (meaning me).