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Factory built vs kit build value
- Thread starter Bigbores
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DOUBLEDEUCE 1
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Yes, the “K” prefix designates kit.
If you have the time and are reasonably handy, I would assemble the kit. If you have some extra money to spend, and can’t wait, get the factory built rifle. If you build from a kit, you know or should know the kit is “new”. If you buy a factory one second hand you could be getting a good deal. Either way, Thompson Center put out some quality products. I’ve been shooting my TC kit rifle for 45 years and have absolutely no complaints. It fits me, and goes off on a regular basis when I pull the trigger. It hits the mark very consistently too. Without a doubt, it’s my go-to rifle.
If you have the time and are reasonably handy, I would assemble the kit. If you have some extra money to spend, and can’t wait, get the factory built rifle. If you build from a kit, you know or should know the kit is “new”. If you buy a factory one second hand you could be getting a good deal. Either way, Thompson Center put out some quality products. I’ve been shooting my TC kit rifle for 45 years and have absolutely no complaints. It fits me, and goes off on a regular basis when I pull the trigger. It hits the mark very consistently too. Without a doubt, it’s my go-to rifle.
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I'll assume the kit built Renegade is already built. It really comes down to the job done on the build by the person who put it together. I would not pay as much for a kit rifle if the panels around the lock and off side are rounded off or the browning/blueing is poorly done. If very well done, then you have a good rifle. Either will probably shoot about the same given the barrel etc. are in good shape.
I think that anything TC holds its value in today's market. Kit built or factory.
user 34300
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It depends on how the kit was finished. The factory rifles were not anything special regarding fit, finish, and especially shaping the wood. They were a production gun made as cheaply as the buyers would accept. The styling was modern. The case in engraving is off putting to me.
Cheap, included not fitting the breech plug, it was timed by brute force only. That ruined the threads on a few with disastrous results. The flintlocks were junk. The triggers were rough as a cob. There was a lot of room to improve on the factory work. That said lots, maybe most, of TC kit finishers were beginners with limited skills and experience. IF a guy knew what a ML was supposed to be he would be building a better more authentic rifle.
Sometimes you can find a kit gun that was slapped together without molesting the wood in an irrecoverable way. Those rifle can be had at a discount. They can then be given the love they need to be a serviceable rifle. The stock needs to be reshaped. The comb need to be thinned and dropped. The TC cheekpiece is modern. The forearm needs to be thinned and the flat top removed. . The general lines of the stock looks better if done with less modern lines. The lock moldings need to be made more appropriate. The triggers need smoothing. IF a flint lock, you will want a new lock.
It probably does not show, but I do not see the old TC's as desirable. I do not see them as collectable for reasons of quality or rarity. People who had them as kids are now getting retirement money and they are running up the prices out of nostalgia. If that makes a guy happy, that is OK by me.
Cheap, included not fitting the breech plug, it was timed by brute force only. That ruined the threads on a few with disastrous results. The flintlocks were junk. The triggers were rough as a cob. There was a lot of room to improve on the factory work. That said lots, maybe most, of TC kit finishers were beginners with limited skills and experience. IF a guy knew what a ML was supposed to be he would be building a better more authentic rifle.
Sometimes you can find a kit gun that was slapped together without molesting the wood in an irrecoverable way. Those rifle can be had at a discount. They can then be given the love they need to be a serviceable rifle. The stock needs to be reshaped. The comb need to be thinned and dropped. The TC cheekpiece is modern. The forearm needs to be thinned and the flat top removed. . The general lines of the stock looks better if done with less modern lines. The lock moldings need to be made more appropriate. The triggers need smoothing. IF a flint lock, you will want a new lock.
It probably does not show, but I do not see the old TC's as desirable. I do not see them as collectable for reasons of quality or rarity. People who had them as kids are now getting retirement money and they are running up the prices out of nostalgia. If that makes a guy happy, that is OK by me.
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I have a TC Hawken "K"it with gorgeous wood and great workmanship [I did not build it]. I would not trade it for a factory completed rifle. The only drawback ... it is a .45.
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Dang, I never knew there were so many thing wrong with my T/C rifles 
My cap lock Hawken was built quite nicely long ago by a late friend who partied himself to an early grave. It hangs on my wall as a reminder to have fun , just not too much asking prices I've seen for factory and kit guns don't vary much if any. I suspect many modern gun shops with a T/C or 2 don't even know what the "K" means. As with everything else it's what someone will pay if they like the gun.
My cap lock Hawken was built quite nicely long ago by a late friend who partied himself to an early grave. It hangs on my wall as a reminder to have fun , just not too much asking prices I've seen for factory and kit guns don't vary much if any. I suspect many modern gun shops with a T/C or 2 don't even know what the "K" means. As with everything else it's what someone will pay if they like the gun.user 34300
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"Dang, I never knew there were so many thing wrong with my T/C rifles"
Most shooters only care that a rifle works most of the time. They do not care to know the details. Construction, and styling details are unimportant to them. Casual shooters are as valid as the most detail oriented type. I was giving an honest assessment of TC ML rifles and what can be done with them. TC's are analogous to a Mossberg pump shotgun, perfectly usable but by no stretch a fine English double gun. Some people think they are a fine example of the gunmakers art, they are not.
Most shooters only care that a rifle works most of the time. They do not care to know the details. Construction, and styling details are unimportant to them. Casual shooters are as valid as the most detail oriented type. I was giving an honest assessment of TC ML rifles and what can be done with them. TC's are analogous to a Mossberg pump shotgun, perfectly usable but by no stretch a fine English double gun. Some people think they are a fine example of the gunmakers art, they are not.
user 36911
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I won't buy a kit gun unless I know the builder well.
Critter Getter
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Value wise the kit guns from TC don’t normally bring quite the money that the factory guns do. There may or may not be a difference in quality as that is mostly determined by the assembler. Two of the major considerations to me when determining what i consider the quality of a gun is accuracy and reliability. Most of my TC’s have been outstanding in those regards without any modifications. Greg 
sportster73hp
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I have a hawkin flint that the seller said he built from a kit in the 70’s. S/n does not have a K in it. The other is a 45 cal and it does have the K.
DOUBLEDEUCE 1
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It is important to look at the rifle to see if it fits you. It’s like trying on a pair of boot. Check the bore and make certain it isn’t loaded if you are handling a used rifle. That is primary.
If what you see in the rifle appeals to you, that’s fine. Triggers that are “rough as a cob“, can be slicked up very easily. If you get a factory rifle, you get a good factory finish. If you get a kit gun, you get a finish applied by the builder. That could range from just about bullet proof to not so good. The same applies to fit and finish overall for both kit and factory rifles. The shape of the lock panels and forearm has absolutely nothing to do with general function of the rifle. That I believe is asthetics only. The overall shape of the rifle is kind of like looking at a pretty woman, but can she cook, if you get my drift.
I used to hunt with a friend for many years. He had the fanciest, most expensive guns. He would insist I get an expensive, fancy, correct gun similar to one of his. Somehow that was supposed to make me a better hunter/ shot. I had and still have that not so fancy gun. I would always outshoot my friend. I usually ended up sharing my take of pheasants or ducks for the day with my fancy gun shooting friend.
Fit, finish and function. I think there are awful lot of people who are happy and or satisfied with the TC products. And all responsible firearms shooters should or do care if the firearm goes off regularly. If for some reason they don’t, it could be a matter of maintaining the piece. Or it could be laziness or neglect. I always care about whatever I am shooting going off when the trigger is pulled.
I doubt if Thompson Center was plagued by a mountain of shortcomings. As with any product, some that don’t make the grade can slip through quality control. They would not have stayed in business for so long.
I can tell you about having custom rifles built that were “all correct” historically speaking, that were abject failures when it came to fit, finish and above all, function.
As you can tell, I happen to be very satisfied with my TC products, all four.
In closing, if you like it, it fits you and it is in good condition, then that’s about half of it. You will be making your decision to satisfy you and your wallet, nobody else.
And that’s my five cents…
If what you see in the rifle appeals to you, that’s fine. Triggers that are “rough as a cob“, can be slicked up very easily. If you get a factory rifle, you get a good factory finish. If you get a kit gun, you get a finish applied by the builder. That could range from just about bullet proof to not so good. The same applies to fit and finish overall for both kit and factory rifles. The shape of the lock panels and forearm has absolutely nothing to do with general function of the rifle. That I believe is asthetics only. The overall shape of the rifle is kind of like looking at a pretty woman, but can she cook, if you get my drift.
I used to hunt with a friend for many years. He had the fanciest, most expensive guns. He would insist I get an expensive, fancy, correct gun similar to one of his. Somehow that was supposed to make me a better hunter/ shot. I had and still have that not so fancy gun. I would always outshoot my friend. I usually ended up sharing my take of pheasants or ducks for the day with my fancy gun shooting friend.
Fit, finish and function. I think there are awful lot of people who are happy and or satisfied with the TC products. And all responsible firearms shooters should or do care if the firearm goes off regularly. If for some reason they don’t, it could be a matter of maintaining the piece. Or it could be laziness or neglect. I always care about whatever I am shooting going off when the trigger is pulled.
I doubt if Thompson Center was plagued by a mountain of shortcomings. As with any product, some that don’t make the grade can slip through quality control. They would not have stayed in business for so long.
I can tell you about having custom rifles built that were “all correct” historically speaking, that were abject failures when it came to fit, finish and above all, function.
As you can tell, I happen to be very satisfied with my TC products, all four.
In closing, if you like it, it fits you and it is in good condition, then that’s about half of it. You will be making your decision to satisfy you and your wallet, nobody else.
And that’s my five cents…
zimmerstutzen
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TC guns were over rated and backed by a now worthless lifetime warranty. The flintlocks were subpar, meaning worse than CVA, because TC insisted on case hardened frizzens instead of proper carbon steel. About 60% of kit guns out there have fitment problems. Too many were finished by the slam bam thankyou method in a rush to get done. TC made some good guns, but not as good as their reputation. Consider the fact that their level of quality led to overwhelming warranty claims that bogged down their profitability. I figured they were going down over 25 years ago when they stopped honoring the warranty on the Patriot pistols. Had a front sights crack from an obvious casting law and they refused to replace it back then already.
Sixthwisconsin
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That's a nice looking rifle. You shouldn't have to wait long to sell it.
DOUBLEDEUCE 1
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Nice looking rifle Sixthwis.
Speaking of lifetime warranties, is there really such an animal in today’s business world ? I doubt it. I called CVA a while ago, and asked about their “lifetime warranty”. I was told ‘sorry’, no such animal anymore.
Twenty years ago, I lost a screw for one of my TC Patriot pistols. A stupid, simple screw. I called Thompson Center and asked about buying another screw. It was the set screw for the triggers. Like I said, stupid simple. I was told by the customer service representative to send in my pistol for repair and evaluation. I did. This pistol by any stretch of the imagination was not new. I know my guns. I sent the Patriot in to TC. After a few short weeks, they sent me back my pistol with a note. It was repaired, replacing the screw, and then completely gone over. They sent back my same old pistol in what I would call a new condition. All for free.
As for a business going down, there are a number of factors to consider. Lack of business, competition or change in the tastes and interests of the buying public. There are many reasons. You only have to look at Colt, Winchester, Remington, Marlin to name a few businesses that have either closed for good or were sold and bought out by another company. CVA as what a lot of us remember, no longer exists.
The broad brushed over generalization of perceived problems is to say the least, speculative and subjective. Fitment problems…. They were kits. You put them together to fit you according to your skills.
Thompson Center in its time and for the time, produced a quality product. That product contributed immensely to this shooting sport.
Speaking of lifetime warranties, is there really such an animal in today’s business world ? I doubt it. I called CVA a while ago, and asked about their “lifetime warranty”. I was told ‘sorry’, no such animal anymore.
Twenty years ago, I lost a screw for one of my TC Patriot pistols. A stupid, simple screw. I called Thompson Center and asked about buying another screw. It was the set screw for the triggers. Like I said, stupid simple. I was told by the customer service representative to send in my pistol for repair and evaluation. I did. This pistol by any stretch of the imagination was not new. I know my guns. I sent the Patriot in to TC. After a few short weeks, they sent me back my pistol with a note. It was repaired, replacing the screw, and then completely gone over. They sent back my same old pistol in what I would call a new condition. All for free.
As for a business going down, there are a number of factors to consider. Lack of business, competition or change in the tastes and interests of the buying public. There are many reasons. You only have to look at Colt, Winchester, Remington, Marlin to name a few businesses that have either closed for good or were sold and bought out by another company. CVA as what a lot of us remember, no longer exists.
The broad brushed over generalization of perceived problems is to say the least, speculative and subjective. Fitment problems…. They were kits. You put them together to fit you according to your skills.
Thompson Center in its time and for the time, produced a quality product. That product contributed immensely to this shooting sport.
user 36911
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PM me a price.
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Thompson/Center was never the same after the 1996 factory fire.
The kit built gun will only be as good as the kit builder. And no better than the components of the kit.
zimmerstutzen
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Nice looking rifle Sixthwis.
Speaking of lifetime warranties, is there really such an animal in today’s business world ? I doubt it. I called CVA a while ago, and asked about their “lifetime warranty”. I was told ‘sorry’, no such animal anymore.
Twenty years ago, I lost a screw for one of my TC Patriot pistols. A stupid, simple screw. I called Thompson Center and asked about buying another screw. It was the set screw for the triggers. Like I said, stupid simple. I was told by the customer service representative to send in my pistol for repair and evaluation. I did. This pistol by any stretch of the imagination was not new. I know my guns. I sent the Patriot in to TC. After a few short weeks, they sent me back my pistol with a note. It was repaired, replacing the screw, and then completely gone over. They sent back my same old pistol in what I would call a new condition. All for free.
As for a business going down, there are a number of factors to consider. Lack of business, competition or change in the tastes and interests of the buying public. There are many reasons. You only have to look at Colt, Winchester, Remington, Marlin to name a few businesses that have either closed for good or were sold and bought out by another company. CVA as what a lot of us remember, no longer exists.
The broad brushed over generalization of perceived problems is to say the least, speculative and subjective. Fitment problems…. They were kits. You put them together to fit you according to your skills.
Thompson Center in its time and for the time, produced a quality product. That product contributed immensely to this shooting sport.
My first TC gun was a Hawken kit. As packaged. the barrel channel was an 3/16 inch too high at the nose cap and to gouge it out would have put the barrel wedge tennon too deep into the stock for the tennon cuts. Before I did anything with it, I took it along to Dixon's Muzzle loaders to consult Chuck Dixon, who pointed to the many gun racks in his shop and said there is a reason why he REFUSED to sell new Thompson Center muzzle loaders. He suggested I take it back to where I got it to get a refund. Fitment problems were routine on the kits and some could not be fixed. That kit guns got the stock seconds rejected from the factory finish line. And that was obvious from mine. The store where I bought the kit refused to take it back. I ended up sending the stock to TC and they replaced it with a walnut stock that had a huge streak of lighter colored sap wood. Again sub par for any manufacturer. 20+ yrs later I was given a factory finished Patriot pistol as a gift and the front sight had a visible crack which they refused to remedy under the "life time warranty" . They referenced some BS about a fire that destroyed the patriot machinery. I got several TC guns as parts of trades over the years. Mostly neglected guns needing barrel work/cleaning. Several of them had problems with the stock milling at the factory. The ones with "K"
As for the CVA side lock life time warranty, most black powder folks know, that went out the window in the late 1990's when CVA went through bankruptcy after the fiasco with the early in-lines blowing up. Heck I have a set of Penn Craft sockets that have "life time warranty" right on the ratchet. None ever failed, but If one was to fail, are there any JC Penney's left?
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