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Fake Hawken Rifle ?
- Thread starter rickystl
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64Springer
75 Cal.
I know nothing about original Hawken rifles but I'm certain that isn't one.
Looks like a flint fowler lock to percussion conversion.
Little sporting dude holding his gun is a bit of a clue.
Looks like a flint fowler lock to percussion conversion.
Little sporting dude holding his gun is a bit of a clue.
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Has the barrel markings, though? It's kind of a high end auction house, I'd think there'd be some kind of guarantee? Esp. for that money.
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'Fake' implies trying to fool or cheat someone. Incorrectly labelled, innocently mis-represented, mis-identified, are different than Fake, which is flat out criminal. A nice replica of a sword or gun is not fake, it's simply a reproduction. Will be interesting to see what this rifle finishes up as.
They did a lot of brass mounted guns, not the classic, cap box looks to my eye similar to iron boxes they made
Conquerordie
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Doesn't look typical, but Im not well versed in Hawkens. Odd little things though: the escutcheons for the barrel pins are two different shapes, and the front sight looks to have been moved forward during its life span, the old dovetail was filled in with a blank. The lock looks like it has some filling in of holes ( maybe was a flint originally) and the screw in the bolster looks new.
appalichian hunter
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Perhaps a re-worked original barrel. 
The lettering seems rather crisp for the age and overall condition of the gun. Would Sam have stamped S Hawken at an angle like that?
Yes, he would have. There is a 'crooked S' stamp still in existence. It is here in Arkansas owned by a builder who used to live near St. Louis and bought the stamp at an auction of the Hawken shop contents. He has stopped building but used the stamp on those rifles he built.
Hawken rifles were not "cookie cutter" duplicates of each other, and their rifle designs evolved some over time, but I don't think that one was built by the Hawken shop. there are just too many discrepancies in comparison with known Hawkens. Somebody did go to the trouble of acquiring S. HAWKEN and ST. LOUIS stamps, as the letters don't appear to be individually stamped, but spuriously stamped rifles are out there, and as noted by @Rifleman1776 at least one genuine original Hawken stamp is still known to exist. I do believe the rifle is a genuine antique, but I don't think it was shot much in its current configuration. Old-time percussion caps were very corrosive, and there is very minimal erosion at the breech or on the drum. The barrel could have been cut at the breech and moved back, but if that was done, I don't think it was shot much afterward. I suppose the rifle might have been worked over in the Hawken shop, but it is my understanding that Sam did not put his stamp on anything that he did not at least have a hand in making.
There are knowledgeable collectors out there who scour the web for auctions like this, but here we have a Hawken rifle with a starting price of $5,000 and no bids. I think that tells us something.
I think it is a genuine antique with some anomalous features, but I don't think it's a Hawken.
Notchy Bob
There are knowledgeable collectors out there who scour the web for auctions like this, but here we have a Hawken rifle with a starting price of $5,000 and no bids. I think that tells us something.
I think it is a genuine antique with some anomalous features, but I don't think it's a Hawken.
Notchy Bob
Bingo. Amen, Bro.
William Sublette
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What's the auction company's responsibility for knowing what they're talking about?
Have seen this issue before. Buyer would have to prove Auction House willfully or knowingly misrepresented the item. Often Auctions will couch item is terms in "we believe" or "item is credited to so and so maker". Seems only leverage buyers really have in such cases is the future credibility of the houses reputation.
appalichian hunter
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Maybe not, it would be your responsibility to know what your buying.
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Interesting replies, and some good points made. And Bob makes the good point that so far, there are no bidders. At the starting price, any bidders are likely to want to be at the auction for a personal inspection in this case. And it's likely any serious bidders will have more than passing knowledge of original Hawken rifles.
Myself, I have only a small knowledge of these guns. But to me, this one just doesn't seem to pass the smell test. Will be interesting to see the auction results. I've seen more than one winning bidder get burned.
Rick
Myself, I have only a small knowledge of these guns. But to me, this one just doesn't seem to pass the smell test. Will be interesting to see the auction results. I've seen more than one winning bidder get burned.
Rick
It looks more like an Ohio rifle. Although I've seen photos of some that were made by them for the local trade that were of this style.
Any chance it's some sort of retrofit done by Sam and worthy of his stamp?
Walt
Any chance it's some sort of retrofit done by Sam and worthy of his stamp?
Walt
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Coddled by most big businesses unrestricted return privilege's folks in this country actually expect unlimited financial protection.
It's not uncommon for auction houses to title half stock rifles as Hawkens'.
The rifle pictured does appear vintage but it's actual heritage remains questionable.
The rifle pictured does appear vintage but it's actual heritage remains questionable.
