Ferguson rifle breech screw.

[Matt Maier]

While understanding that a Ferguson rifle is, in fact, a breech loader, I hope this is still an appropriate forum to ask questions about it as it is still a flintlock.

The breech screw is an 11 TPI, 11 lead tapered thread which mates with the corresponding tapped hole in the breech. I've been thinking about how this would be accomplished in the late 18th century, and the only method I could come up with is that after the threads on the breech screw were cut, it would then be used as a forming tap to swage the threads into the breech. Would this be accurate? It may have been done another way, but its the only method that pops into my mind.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Fergusons, Kammerladers, Halls, Lorenzoni lever action flinters, revolving Collier flintlocks, and even Sharps drop block rifles like the 1863 USED to be forbidden topics here (reason; not pure muzzle loaders), but with the ownership change of the forum, the rules have been relaxed to allow their discussion here. The rules basically changed to allow discussion of non-modern cartridge guns. If you search Forgotten Weapons, you will even find early examples of cartridge type wheel locks.! Zonie hasn't opined about them specifically, but my guess is that if someone had one, and / or wanted to talk about it, it would be allowed.

 

[Matt Maier]

Fergusons, Kammerladers, Halls, Lorenzoni lever action flinters, revolving Collier flintlocks, and even Sharps drop block rifles like the 1863 USED to be forbidden topics here (reason; not pure muzzle loaders), but with the ownership change of the forum, the rules have been relaxed to allow their discussion here.

You forgot about Kalthoff repeaters.

 

[Col. Batguano]

An obvious gap in my knowledge base I will have to research. Thank you.

I actually think Burnside cartridge guns (because the cartridge is so weird) probably shouldn't be out of bounds either.

 

[Matt Maier]

Kalthoff repeaters are fascinating and I wish there were more information available on them, a schematic would be wonderful.

 

[hawkeye2]

An obvious gap in my knowledge base I will have to research. Thank you.

I actually think Burnside cartridge guns (because the cartridge is so weird) probably shouldn't be out of bounds either.

The Burnside, Sharps, Smith, Maynard and others are allowed here as they are all ignited by a percussion cap mounted on a nipple separate from the "cartridge".

 

[Gun Tramp]

Use the Search function for "Ferguson rifle" to see threads on the subject by dave_person. Pun coincidental.

 

[Zonie]

Fergusons,...
Zonie hasn't opined about them specifically, but my guess is that if someone had one, and / or wanted to talk about it, it would be allowed.

hawkeye2 hit the nail on the head.

The forum rules were changed to allow discussion about breech loading guns provided they did not use "totally self contained cartridges". My definition for a totally self contained cartridge is a cartridge that contains the bullet, the powder and a primer of any kind.
Using this definition, we cannot discuss breech loading guns that use rim-fire, center-fire, pin-fire or similar cartridges.

The Fergunson rifle is therefore OK to discuss on the forum.

 

[Eterry]

An obvious gap in my knowledge base I will have to research. Thank you.

I actually think Burnside cartridge guns (because the cartridge is so weird) probably shouldn't be out of bounds either.

Being there is an original Burnside carbine for sale in the classifieds I would say that's what we used to call in my line of work a "clue".

As to Ferguson rifles, it's on my short list if I hit the lotto.

 

[Zonie]

The Burnside cartridge did not contain a primer or cap so, it is OK to discuss it on the forum. The early Burnside carbines used a paper tape with spaced dots of priming compound. Later models used a standard percussion cap for ignition.
All of this is getting us sidetracked. Please keep the discussions in this thread on the subject, the Ferguson rifle.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Matt,
I've not seen any documentation about how screw plug breeches were made. Keep in mind that Ferguson did not invent the screw plug. By his time it was already old technology with examples going back to the 1740s at least. Ferguson may have designed newer tapered threads and the fowling grooves as well as the overall design of the rifle. I suspect the makers used a hardened tap with the course threads and used it to cut threads into the breech. They may have swaged or cut threads into the plug. My guess is they used swaging die to make the job repeatable. Then they may have lapped the threaded plug into each breech for a good fit. Ernie Cowan made an accurate copy of the Morristown Ferguson but I believe he machined the threads and then lapped the plug. The screw plug on the Morristown gun is not iron or steel. It is some gun metal bronze so it could never have been used to cut threads. It likely was swaged in a die and then lapped into the breech threads. Thee screw plug on the other ordnance rifle in Milwaukee is steel.

dave

 

[Enfield58]

I discovered this video of repairing a Ferguson rifle this morning. It's the first time that I've seen the rifle in separate pieces with a good analysis of function and the flaws.

I always wanted a preproduction but the price is out of my reach right now.

In the test firing of the rifle, they prime the pan first then load the main charge. Of course that was standard drill for the day. However, I always thought that, with the Ferguson, the excess powder that was pushed out of the top of the breech with the screw/plug was then pushed over into the pan. Then the frizzen closed. Am I incorrect on this?



Bonus video: WARNING: Antique rifle porn. Some of you may need a private room for viewing.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Matt, do not where you are located, but at the Fort Frederick market faire there is a fellow who makes the rounds with a cart he has fergusons rifles and displays them in the cart, I do not know if he builds them or not, but very nice rifles. Perhaps Loyalist Dave will add to this.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Enfield58,
Ferguson primed his gun as you described with the excess powder during one of his demonstrations, however, that is not a good practice with a Ferguson because it is powder residue in the threads above the chamber that jam the action. That is because those threads make the tightest gas seal and are tapered to seal tightly. If you have excess powder coming to the top of the breech when you close it, by default some of that excess powder is being ground into the upper threads. When that happens to me, I may get 4 or 5 more shots out of the gun before needing to clean the breech. If I avoid that by not over filling my powder chamber and priming the pan separately, I can get 30-40 shots before fouling becomes an issue.

dave

 

[Enfield58]

Hi Enfield58,
Ferguson primed his gun as you described with the excess powder during one of his demonstrations, however, that is not a good practice with a Ferguson because it is powder residue in the threads above the chamber that jam the action. That is because those threads make the tightest gas seal and are tapered to seal tightly. If you have excess powder coming to the top of the breech when you close it, by default some of that excess powder is being ground into the upper threads. When that happens to me, I may get 4 or 5 more shots out of the gun before needing to clean the breech. If I avoid that by not over filling my powder chamber and priming the pan separately, I can get 30-40 shots before fouling becomes an issue.

dave

That's interesting. What do you use for lubricant on the threads of the screw?

I don't have, or even held, a Ferguson. However, if I did, I often thought of lubricating it with white lithium grease like I do for the gas check of my Shiloh 1863 Sharps rifle.

I fill in the cavity where the gas check resides and don't have any problem removing it or the breech block jamming because of the fouling.

All of the nipples on my percussion guns get the same white lithium grease treatment. There's never been a problem removing them.

If you don't use the white lithium grease on the threads, do you think it might work?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I don't use lithium grease but would be willing to try it to see. I use a 50-50 mix of beeswax and crisco applied on the threads of the plug when melted and the plug hot to the touch. I then screw it into the breech before the wax fully cools. There is some evidence that Ferguson used a mix of beeswax and mutton tallow but it is not conclusive.

dave

 

[Enfield58]

Where did you get your rifle? Have you had any problems with the stock breaking as shown in the previous video?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Enfield,
I built my rifle from parts cast by The Rifle Shoppe. I did not use their stock, however. Rather, I made mine from a nice English walnut plank. I actually refinished the gun several years ago. I got to see the original in Morristown up close and personal, and realized I made a few errors on mine. So I stripped it, reshaped and thinned the stock a bit and put on a more accurate finish. The only deviation from the original ordnance rifle is I kept the side panel molding similar to the De Peyster and Durs Egg rifles, rather than the ordnance guns. When you examine the original, you can see the stocks were hurriedly made. Ferguson was in a rush to get them done before fall 1776 so he could train his experimental rifle unit and be ready to go when they sailed for America in 1777. British military actually delayed production of the last 200 (of 1000) pattern 1776 muzzle loading rifles to make the 100 Fergusons. I strengthened the stock at the action and barrel channel with a varnish thin layer of Acra Glas. This seems to be working as the rifle is holding up well despite quite a bit of use. I believe the broken examples were damaged by recoil not from being banged about because the cracks look like the wood just separated at the breech. As a result, I allowed a tiny bit of extra space in the hole for the breech along its back half. So far so good.

dave