FFF versus FF for Lyman GPR .54

[MIOutdoorsman]

Hi guys..
I purchased my first flintlock this year, a Lyman GPR in .54. I'm a pretty accomplished rifleman with a modern, scoped rifle, but I know this is an entirely different beast.

First trip to the range revealed that I can't hit the broad side of a barn, and the only way I'll get a deer is if I scare it to death! All shots have been too low, and I maxed out the adjustment on the rear site, so I'm now starting to shave off the front site to bring the shots up. I understand this is common practice with a new Lyman GPR, so I'm working it.

So far, I've been using FFFF in the pan, and 90 grains of FF in the barrel. In reading the Lyman manual, this is their recommendation.

A lot of guys seem to want to use FFF in the barrel, though my reading on this matter suggests that the 3-F is more for the smaller calibers, and the 2-F for the .50's and above.

Guys--what's the deal? I know I need more range time, and I'm committed to that, but I'm now considering whether or not to continue with FF or switch to FFF. My goal is to site in with whatever I'll use for hunting, so I might as well get this decision in the bag!

Is the FFF going to be more consistent and accurate than FF? I know it burns faster and would require less grains than the FF for the same energy. Is that the only practical difference? Why are so many guys shooting FFF instead of FF?

Enlighten me fellas!

 

[BrownBear]

Shortening the front sight (a very little at a time) is your answer to the low shooting. As for which powder is best, that's right up there with which ball, patch and lube is best:

Only your rifle will know the answer. They're all different. I can't say it's typical of ALL GPR's because I don't own them all. But both by 50 cal and my 54 cal are indifferent whether I shoot 3f or 2f. They like them equally- provided I use the patch/ball/lube combo they like.

In your boat I wouldn't touch the sights until you have tried various load combos till you find the one that groups best. Only then adjust your sights to zero your rifle at your chosen sight-in distance. I prefer a 75 yard sight-in, but there are lots of opinions on that.

 

[cynthialee]

You will need to experiment with the two powders, you will also have to try different powder amounts.
You need to try different patch thicknesses and lubes.
You may even need to try different sized ball.

There is a lot of work that goes into dialing in a new BP rifle. Just going with the by the book recommendations isn't going to get you to minute of deer.

 

[innocent bystander]

I have a percussion GPR. I use 60 grains of FFF for target shooting and my rifle hits dead on at 50 yards. However, I might suggest that there may be another problem that you might not be looking at.

Since this is the first time you've fired this type of weapon, I'm wondering if your sight picture is being disturbed by the pan flash. You might be flinching due to being unfamiliar with the flintlock ignition system.

 

[Kansas Jake]

At what range were you sighting in the rifle? Starting out I usually begin at 25 yards from a bench over sand bags or a rest. I try to find a load the rifle likes at that range and shoot for group without fine tuning the sights. Once I have a decent load at 25, then I move to fifty again from a bench. Once I'm getting decent groups, then I see what it will do at 100 yards.

If your rifle is brand new, it also will need some time breaking in and the may take several hundred shots or more. I wouldn't do drastic work on the sights until I'm getting decent groups.

Also, we all have different levels of skill. What may be an acceptable group for my abilities may not be be as good as you can do.

I have an old TC 50 caliber Hawken I used to shoot a lot at local black powder shoots. I generally shot 50 grains of ffg at targets at fifty yards or less. The sights were adjusted so a bottom of the bull (6 o'clock) hold was generally in the center of the black. For hunting I upped the charge to 85 grains of ffg and it was close to the center of the bull at 100 yards. That worked for me and gave me minute of deer accuracy.

You also mention you have shot a lot of scoped rifles. Shooting open sights is a different ball game if you haven't shot them much before and a flintlock adds another element to the game. Just keep practicing.

Good luck and have fun dialing your rifle in.

 

[nwtradegun]

start at 15 yards and work your way out to 100 yards. it takes a lot of shooting to site in a new gun. if it was used ask the prior owner his load.

 

[artmechanic]

I've only had my GPR .54 (lefty) for 8 months and I'm still working out all the kinks. This is my first flinter but I shoot FFF in all my percussions (.54, and .58) so I figured may as well stay with what I know.
Going to open sights may be an issue here, but also be aware of the 'flinch'. Took me a while before I got over that...and it still shows up once in a while. I just posted a video of me with the flinter. I had it shot in slow-mo so I could see whether I was still reacting to the flash, and if so, how I was reacting. Turns out I'm not. (Yay!)
I would suggest (as others have and will) working on your charge/patch/bullet combinations until you find what your rifle is happy with. I use different patches for different rifles, and even that changes depending if I'm using my own cast bullets or if I have to buy some (usually Hornady). Switching bullets will almost always throw off the accuracy, even if the precision stays good.
JoAnne's fabrics has a good selection of ticking, and utility cloth you can experiment with for the patches.
Also, you might try a conical. My first time out with the .533 Minies (see video) was quite successful shooting freehand. Next step is to get it on the bench to really work out the charge limits vs accuracy.
But working all this out is the best part of shooting BP...don't get frustrated, think of it as having a raucous conversation with a new best friend...who's trying to tell you what she needs, even though she will only give you hints. And it's so worth it.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Theses are good suggestions. Yes, there's the new "flash-flinch" that I'm sure I suffer from a bit, but I can regularly get 1" MOA at 100y with ease using several other scoped rifles, so while I'm new to flint's, I'm not new to shooting.

I started at the 25 yard range, intending to move to 50 y eventually, but was shooting so poorly that I never left that range. I am using sand bags on a bench. I'm shooting round balls and pre-lubed patches for consistency. The first couple of shots were just to learn the mechanics of loading, etc, so I used 60 grains. I moved up to 90 grains pretty easily, but even at 25y, my groups are very low. I do get groupings though, so I'm not terribly concerned about it--more practice, and more shaving of the front site is what should do it.

My real question is whether or not I should focuse on trying to get sited in using 3F or 4F. This is yet another factor in the game, and since I consider it a very lucky month if I'm able to get to the range one time (busy father and busy work), I'd like to reduce the number of variables that I have to tweak.

I appreciate and am envious of you guys that can find the time away from work and home that allows you to shoot hundreds of rounds in any given month. I'd be happy to get through 50 rounds in 2 or three months. That's my reality, so I'm working with what I have.

 

[George]

My real question is whether or not I should focuse on trying to get sited in using 3F or 4F.

I assume you meant to say 2F or 3F.

I've been shooting 3F exclusively in my .54 percussion for more than 20 years, never shot 2F even once, and have had splendid accuracy from the beginning.

I also shoot 3F exclusively for my roundball shooting in my .62 flintlock smoothbore, same result. I do prefer 2F for shot loads in the smoothbore, but see no reason to use it for ball.

Full disclosure..... I'm not one who believes shooting BP guns of any type accurately requires all the tinkering, adjusting, searching and trying different stuff the way most do. I've found that I can decide I want to shoot a certain combination, and if it fits within very broad guidelines it will work to my satisfaction. It has been my personal experience, in my own shooting, that if I assume any given problem can be traced back to the shooter I'll be right 90%+ of the time.

Spence

 

[hanshi]

Both work just fine; but you may find that one gives a bit better accuracy than the other. Rifles are individuals and have their likes and dislikes, even the same model. I use 3F for just about everything, for convenience sake.

 

[AwwNaww]

I cannot really see a difference in my .50 GPR flinter between 3F and 2F. I use 3F as it works for the pan as well as main charge. I found the patch thickness to be a real variable and once worked out, gave good accuracy with anywhere from 70 to 80g of 3f and round ball. My rifling was REALLY sharp and Lyman's suggestion of fine steel wool on a brush helped get the wire edges that were cutting my patches. I did not have to shave the front sight using the stock rear.

 

[Tom Compton]

Get an experienced flint shooter to shoot 5 rounds. My bet would be operator error. If it proves otherwise send it back

My .54 is good w 90 gr FFg in the barrel, 4F in the pan, .535 ball and .015" or thicker all cotton patch wet w saliva.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

This is exactly what I'm using (ball and patch sizes). I'll keep working it and seee if things improve. Unfortunately, I'm new to the area we live now, so tracking down an experienced BP guy is not in the cards for me here. But I'm patient. I'll work it out.

Certainly appreciate the advice here guys. Y'all will be my "local" source of expertise!!

 

[AwwNaww]

It is sometimes helpful to look at a fired patch. Is it burned or torn? I got more fliers from that than anything else.

 

[Wes/Tex]

OK...the "y'all" got me! :wink: The old rule of thumb is FFFg requires about a 20% cut back in powder charge compared to FFg to achieve the same velocity, and I mean real old rule from a real old fart! :haha:

Mine was a .50 but used 90 grains of FFFg in it for hunting load and it never had a problem. You'll have to keep testing with your .54, never had one of those, but a couple local guys are using 90 to 110 grains of FFFg with good results. If you don't need steamroller power, and you usually don't, try some loads in the 60 to 70 grain range for much better accuracy. Unless it bites or claws back, accuracy will put more Bambis in the stew pot than sheer power.

The other old rule is a quick sighting formula for getting going. It works on the simple formula that guns in the .45 to .58 caliber range have similar trajectory curves if the velocity is 1800 to 2000 fps. It allows getting on paper quicker. Simply, sight in at 13 yards dead center...at 50 yards it'll be 1 inch high, at 100 yards it'll be 1 inch low and at 125 yards it'll be 6 inches low. Out to 100 yards there's no more than a 2 inch variable. It's not perfect but it'll get you on quick and then you can fine tune from there.

The 'flash flinch' will go away with practice. We all have had it going into rock locks. Just concentrate on the sights and target and wear glasses till you mentally get past it. My step son got introduced to the sport with a pal's long rifle. Randy aimed at a Coke can, closed his eyes and yanked it. By a miracle, he put a .50 cal crater in the can and was hooked. Me, it was Fess Parker as Davy Crockett...what I meant by old fart. I still have the original 78 record! Just keep at it, you'll get hooked and next thing we know you'll be wearing dead animal hides and calling everyone 'pilgrim'. Welcome to the addiction! :rotf: :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

You mentioned that your using "pre-lubed" patches?

Are these something you bought at the store?

If so, that could easily be a big part of your problem getting good groups.

Although pre-lubed patches can work if they are fairly new, the lube tends to weaken the cotton fibers after sitting around for a while.

The pre-lubed patches found at most gun stores have been hanging there on the rack for months if not years and often they are so weak they blow apart when the gun fires.

The best way to see if this is happening is to find the shot patches and examine them.

If the center section that was behind the ball is good and you can see undamaged cloth where the ball meets the bore, all is good.
The outer area of the patch will probably be badly frayed because that's what happens when a piece of cloth is subjected to a supersonic air blast.

If the patches are torn or burned where the ball meets the bore, either the patch is too thin or it is too weak because of the oil damage to the material.

If you can't find anything but shredded remnants of the patches, they are old and defective. Pitch any you still have into the trash can.

When your patches, powder and ball loads are close to right, your gun should be making a group smaller than 2 inches at 25 yards.

When you find loads your gun really likes it should shoot 5 shot groups smaller than 1 inch at that range.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

I also advise against the pre-lubed patch.

I use the bulk .018" thick patches, cut to 1.5" wide strips, then cut with a knife each time I load.
http://possibleshop.com/s-s-patch.html

I use water and ballistol soaked patches, then let the ballistol water mix dry. Or, use a couple drops of hoppes #9 on a dry patch.

I also swab between shots with a very lightly moistened patch.

That yellow goop sucks......

I use 70 to 80 grains of 3f with good results.

remember the 4f is in the pan only!

LEarn about your patent chamber and how to keep it clean. The last inch or so of your gun is about .36" in diameter, not .54" all the way down. I use a breech brush to clean the end.

I don't want the man's work on what he does to be let out, except for him.

Dutch Shoultz system.....

Wish I knew about it a few years ago.

There is no shame if you install a lyman 57 GPR peep sight in my book......

MY setup makes cloverleafs at 100 yards if I do my part......

 

[cynthialee]

Pre-lubed patches are indeed not a good plan.
If you want to use the pre-made patches, they sell them with out lube.
Those will last years, the pre-lube ones are no good in about 18-24 months after purchase according to my encounters with them. Unless you get an old packet then they are no good out of the package.

 

[Paul_R]

90gr of FFF is my standard load in my .54 GPR. The whole FFF vs FF thing for various rifle calibers is vastly overblown IMHO, especially for patched balls. The only real noticable difference I've found is the FFF fouling tends to be a bit harder in my BPCR rifles.

 

[Danny Ross]

You say you can easily shoot one inch groups at 100yds with "scoped rifles" so you are not new to shooting. I am here to tell you, you may not be new to shooting, but it sounds like you maybe new to shooting with open sights, because you don't mention you have shot with them. If not, you need to keep your focus on the front sight during the whole shot process and make sure you are placing what you want to hit on the top of that front sight. Since you have no magnification with open sights, get a paper plate and either make a 2 inch dot with a permanent marker or use one of the stick on 2 inch dots, if your eyes are good enough use a one inch dot, when aiming put the dot on top of the post and make sure it stay there as you shoot and try to make sure the gun doesn't cant as you are aiming. As mention start close no further than 50yds. As to whether to shoot 2F or 3F let your gun tell you and as mentioned try different patch thickness and lube to see what works best. Working up a accuate load for your muzzleloader is really no different than working up a load for you best accuracy out of you centerfire rifles. Find what powder works best, what powder charge, and what components. DANNY