FFF versus FF for Lyman GPR .54

[MIOutdoorsman]

These are good tips Danny. I shoot plenty of open-site pistols, but not rifles. I do have one other "peep-sited" lever-action rifle in .44 mag in line for siting-in too, but I'm all giddy about the flint nowadays, so who knows if and when I'll pull that one out of the gun safe!

Anyway--your points and advice are well taken. I plan on getting to the range this Sunday with some LARGE pieces of card targets with small red bull's eyes, and a file for my front site. With any luck I'll start to see some groupings that I can then improve upon by adjusting the rear site and/or filing the front site (if necessary).

 

[Danny Ross]

I wouldn't start filing till you can shoot a group of some sort. You might want to switch to the fix sight that comes with the rifle, if you are still using the adjustable one that came on the rifle. "For me" it was a better rear sight and gives me a better sight picture. I centered up the rear sight and made minimal adjustments to the front sight for the windage. If you do this, just remember for the front sight you chase the impact. If it is shooting left move it left. I put a pencil line on the barrel, at the edge of the front sight blade the direction I am moving it, so I can tell how far I moved it, in case it is two much. If not far enough I put another pencil line again for the same reason. Just a thought. DANNY

 

[fishmusic]

One of the possible problems can be the GPR adjustable rear sight. It is not a robust sight and can easily lose adjustments. If your groups aren't staying consistent consider replacing it.

 

[BrownBear]

One of the possible problems can be the GPR adjustable rear sight. It is not a robust sight and can easily lose adjustments. If your groups aren't staying consistent consider replacing it.

That was my thought, too. Short term, try folding something (I use leather) and wedge it under the rear of the leaf, just to temporarily lock things in. If your groups suddenly tighten, there's your answer.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Thanks guys. I agree--the rear adjustable site does seem a bit flimsy, especially when it's at the maximum "out" adjustment, which was my situation. I may have filed too early and too much also, so now I'm starting over with the rear site as low as it goes, and will raise it as needed. If I can't get any groupings this time, I'll swap it out for the other fixed site. Maybe just replace it with a peep, but I hope not to have to do that.

 

[Danny Ross]

Something to keep in mind, "if" you did take to much off of the front sight, you can get a replacement from Lyman, or Track of the Wolf also has front sight blades. A buddy of mine took to much off and had to get a replacement.

I can't see black on black sights. I paint my front sights orange. One thing that makes the orange (or any color) pop out, is put a coat of white on first, then paint the orange. Almost like looking at a fiber optic. I use finger nail polish. I use the Sally Hasson white, it has nylon in it and makes it make it VERY chip resistant. Learned about the Sally Hasson from my wife. DANNY

 

[William O.]

Every Lyman barrel I ever owned did it's best using 2f in .54 and 3f for .50 including a fast twist barrel for conical shooting. All of those barrels required about 100 shots or so to get the best accuracy and become brightly polished.
Here's some advice for getting on target.
Start with 55 grains of 2f, a .530 RB and some 100% cotton ticking material. JoAnns fabric and similar fabric stores carry both pillow and mattress ticking. One is a 50-50 and the other is 100% cotton. Buy at least one yard. It should mic to at least .015 thickness with mild compression. The weave should be good and tight. Also buy a yard of cotton flannel so you'll have both cleaning and swabbing patches. The ticking material has starch in it (sizing) which must be washed out before using it for our purposes. The edges will fray and you'll loose a little material; no big deal. Now, once your patching material is washed and dried you'll need to pick a lube. Cut or tear the material into strips about 2 inches wide and 6 inches or so long. You can tear/cut along the lines of the material but you will lay this across the muzzle, push a ball down and then cut across the muzzle, then ram it down over your powder charge. Back to lube choice. There are at least 10,000,000 billion lube recipes but for now you need to just go with one of them. Plain olive oil has worked well for me as has a 8 to 1 mix of olive oil to beeswax. Beeswax simply makes the lube stiffer and not runny plus easier to work with. There is also Ballistol, spit, etc. Best to KISS for now. Whatever it is, your shooting patches should not be dripping wet with lube, it only takes a little to seal the gasses and leave the fouling soft. Now to putting it all together and shooting. Start with 55 grains of 2f and real black powder. I prefer Goex but that's up to you. I do not recommend substitutes for this process.
55 grains of 2f, a .530 RB and lubed ticking material cut at the muzzle seated with firm but not crushing pressure. Try and be consistent with the amount of seating pressure. Now, at this point you are simply working up an accurate load so you'll know what your rifle "likes". Do not adjust or file the sights or change any variable at this point. Shoot three times, aiming at the same point of the target. Swab between shots with an alcohol dampened patch made from the cotton flannel you bought at the store. Dampened is just that; nothing more or you will kill the next powder charge. Swabbing is just down and up then discard it. You are not cleaning at this point, just removing a lot but not all the fouling.
Shoot three times at the target aiming at the same spot, swabbing between each shot. Increase the charge by 5 grains and shoot three more times, swabbing between shots. At some point your groups should be getting tighter and tighter, then stop or even open back up. Stick with that or back off by 5 grains and you've found what your rifle likes. Only then do you start to adjust or file your sights to hit where your point of aim is. I've always gone straight to the nonadjustable buckhorn type sights that Lyman includes with their rifles. Filing your front sight raises the point of impact but remember to go slowly as you can't put metal back on. One stroke with the file at a time.
Order Dutch Schoult's system in the meantime; http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

 

[54ball]

I like 2ffg. The rifle will do fine with 3fffg as well. Heck I have even used 2 and 3f mixed (accidentally topped off my horn with 3f) it did fine.

The Rifle should have come with a non adjustable primitive rear sight. For accuracy with a Great Plains.....remove that Hokey adjustable sight and use the non adjustable primitive sight that came in the box.

I never had much luck with that adjustable sight. It was like a new rifle every trip to the range.

Two words.....Wandering Zero

You do not need an adjustable for this type of rifle.

Put the primitive sight on the rifle....
Take a brass drift and a file to the range
Sight in with 80 grns 2ff
Start close 15-25 yards
Set it for point of aim at 75
Use Kentucky windage (hold over) for 100 and beyond

These rifles (like just about all American Rifles of the era) are not made for Bench Shooting and are especially painful to shoot prone.

You can't get down on these rifles like you can a modern bolt action. If you do, that crescent butt will sink in your shoulder at the top and bottom.

To have an enjoyable session with this rifle...
Build up your bags or pads on the shooting bench so you can shoot the rifle at a more upright stance. Sometimes....depending on height of the bench, I will simply prop off my elbow with no bags at all. Other times the bags may be under the elbow.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Guys-thanks much for the time you put into these replies! I made it out to the range this morning--before I read these last few posts. Thus--I still had the Lyman adjustable rear site on, and I know exactly what you mean about that site.

Still, I hadd a much better go at it today. Hitting 3" groupings at 50 yards now, and 2" at 25yards.

Solution was a different patch, and also adjustments to the sites.

As you guys advised though, the adjustable rear site from Lyman is pretty lame, as the spring metal that pushes it up against the adjustment screw is so week that it will move around a bit on its own. I plan on wedging a piece of leather underneath to provide additional resistance. Or maybe I'll just ditch it altogether like some of you recommend, and go with the non-adjustable one. My fear now is that I may have been too aggressive with shaving the front site before realizing what was happening with the flimsy rear one. So now it could shoot too high with a fixed site?? Guess there's only one way to find out, but I hesitate to change anything out now that I'm shooting at least reasonably well.

In summary, my biggest errors were:

I was using "cleaning" patches as shooting patches. Yea. Rookie mistake there, duh. I replaced with true pre-lubricator shooting patches (yellow with black stripes--look like old school tacking).

Second mistake was filing the front site too early... luckily that meant tightening down the rear site, where it's marginally better at sticking true (kinda) than at the other end of the adjustment.

As for my original question on 2F versus 3F, i stuck with 2F all along and don't plan on changing that. I now have two unused 3F cans of Goex, which can only mean one thing, right? I need to buy another gun that likes the 3F!!! Lol

 

[Wes/Tex]

Looks like you're working out your problems. When it comes to rear sights, and my own take is that they're double-ugly, I'd recommend you look at the TOTW parts page below and scroll down to sights...then have fun. The GPR has a metric width dovetail which is just a hair under 3/8ths inch wide. That is easily fixed with a triangular file. The the choice you're faced with is how fancy, buckhorn or not, adjustable or not, all or none of the above! Have fun! :wink: :haha:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Category.aspx/632

 

[AZbpBurner]

Something to keep in mind, "if" you did take to much off of the front sight, you can get a replacement from Lyman, or Track of the Wolf also has front sight blades. A buddy of mine took to much off and had to get a replacement.

I can't see black on black sights. I paint my front sights orange. One thing that makes the orange (or any color) pop out, is put a coat of white on first, then paint the orange. Almost like looking at a fiber optic. I use finger nail polish. I use the Sally Hasson white, it has nylon in it and makes it make it VERY chip resistant. Learned about the Sally Hasson from my wife. DANNY

I've ALWAYS used fingernail polish on my sights. I've still got some in the fridge bought at a Gold Circle Store in Col's in the early 80's - it lasts forever when you keep it refrigerated. Instead of white, I've used a silver basecoat with similar results.

 

[AZbpBurner]

Hi guys..
I purchased my first flintlock this year, a Lyman GPR in .54. I'm a pretty accomplished rifleman with a modern, scoped rifle, but I know this is an entirely different beast.

First trip to the range revealed that I can't hit the broad side of a barn, and the only way I'll get a deer is if I scare it to death! All shots have been too low, and I maxed out the adjustment on the rear site, so I'm now starting to shave off the front site to bring the shots up. I understand this is common practice with a new Lyman GPR, so I'm working it.

So far, I've been using FFFF in the pan, and 90 grains of FF in the barrel. In reading the Lyman manual, this is their recommendation.

A lot of guys seem to want to use FFF in the barrel, though my reading on this matter suggests that the 3-F is more for the smaller calibers, and the 2-F for the .50's and above.

Guys--what's the deal? I know I need more range time, and I'm committed to that, but I'm now considering whether or not to continue with FF or switch to FFF. My goal is to site in with whatever I'll use for hunting, so I might as well get this decision in the bag!

Is the FFF going to be more consistent and accurate than FF? I know it burns faster and would require less grains than the FF for the same energy. Is that the only practical difference? Why are so many guys shooting FFF instead of FF?

Enlighten me fellas!

The Real Answer: Don't dick with the sights or even try to work up your most accurate powder charge until you've fired at least 200 rounds thru it.

While my 1:48" Lyman barrels all seem to break in much easier, the 1:60" all seem to be more time consuming to break in. Avoid the impulse to shortcut by grinding on the bore with abrasive compounds or steel wool. Do it right with sufficient time and proper cleaning between shooting sessions & you'll get an insufferably accurate rifle.

I get better results in both my .50 & .54 rifles with 3F. 2F works in a pinch, but fouls more and quicker.

 

[azmntman]

I now have two unused 3F cans of Goex, which can only mean one thing, right? I need to buy another gun that likes the 3F!!! Lol

:thumbsup: By George he's one us us now!!

 

[Danny Ross]

You ain't a kiddin that stuff is old if you got it at a Gold Circle Store. Alright you got me curious WHICH Gold Circle Store. :hmm: DANNY

 

[AZbpBurner]

You ain't a kiddin that stuff is old if you got it at a Gold Circle Store. Alright you got me curious WHICH Gold Circle Store. :hmm: DANNY

Morse Rd. Used to live in Worthington. It's funny how I can still visualize the route to the store, even though today there are likely some major changes.

Also got a battery charger from G C that is out in the shop & still gets a call to use every few years.