FFFF documented use in the Fur Trade Era? Un-glazed "Rifle Powder"? Is today's powder dirtier?

[Rudyard]

The UK was served by Curtis& Harvey then changed hands some Gevelo powder then the Swiss But most I used was the bulk bought A5 FO triangle, that we bought in 50 pounds plastic bags inside the big cardboard box. I had a Powder permit to buy that much but we divid it up into pound tins soon as we got it . I used to watch the fine dust float up to the venetion striplights and wonder the wisdom of what we might be doing. The Powder was grey and unglazed I dubbed it' Soot' .But it was fine & De Witt Bailey in his Book on British Military Rifles used the same and thought it equal to the original powders and matched the sights . per original given charges . I didn't notice it being overly foul though he thought it was . And there where varios similar powders offered in NZ I did use Goex in the US plus Metior , Shure shot , ( a China powder ) some Elephant that was foul And now' Holy Smoke' a NZ made powder .But I useualy buy powder at auctions & currently use original C & H number 4 which hasn't been made since the sixties . but it keeps mix it up dry it in bowls in the bright sun and it should be the same rather than the varience some batches can have, And can lose you a match by topping up with a new tin different enough to shoot differently & the last thing you want in a match. I have never seen pyrodex or used any such offering .So have no opinion if don't want to go there from what ive gathered .
Rudyard

 

[hawkeye2]

I sat beside the owner of Back Creek Gun Shop at lunch today (probably 4th. largest powder distributor in the US) and asked him if a license was needed to buy FA or blasting powder and he said no.

 

[RAEDWALD]

It may be worth noting that glazing and graphitise are not synonymous. Glazing is tumbling the corned grains to polish the surface. Coating with graphite merely means adding some to that tumbling process.

I remain to be convinced that the graphite does more than make the grains silver-shinier to help marketing, but I am open to scientific evidence that it does perform some other function.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Graphite is a dry lubricant. The use of graphite on the blackpowder helps to eliminate “bridging’ in the powder horn. Tumbling the powder knocks off the rough protrusions from the korning process, polishes the kernels, which serves to help eliminate “bridging” in the powder horn.

 

[HighUintas]

I have read but am unsure of the validity of the statement that the graphite coating also slightly ******* ignition, making it safer for mass handling, storage, etc.

Does anyone know the truth on that?

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Hi dgracis, no need to interject for my sake, I'm quite aware of the reason for glazing on the powder and also that one can legally buy glazed or unglazed, blasting or fireworks powder. The first paragraph in the quote you replied was a quote of the previous post I was responding to.

I've always used glazed powder (GOEX) and have never had any problems with the powder in the barrel when shooting or firing blanks but I have seen the fouling in the pan turn to soup causing trouble. Our group always bought powder in bulk (3f) from Back Creek Gun Shop and gave it to the members as they needed. The owner of Back Creek is one of the original members and after 47 years still participates when we are requested to do an event.

Hey Hawkeye,

My apologies for mistaking that as your quote. I appreciate the reply and I am on my way to make some more coffee so hopefully I don't make another similar mistake anytime soon.

Thanks!

 

[hawkeye2]

Havin' a coffee right now; hopefully won't screw up anything this evening.

 

[Pukka Sahib]

Graphite is a dry lubricant. The use of graphite on the blackpowder helps to eliminate “bridging’ in the powder horn. Tumbling the powder knocks off the rough protrusions from the korning process, polishes the kernels, which serves to help eliminate “bridging” in the powder horn.

If you ever experienced “bridging”, you would never bitch about the use of graphite.

 

[TFoley]

Not allowed to use a ramrod at reenactments because back during the bi-centennial (1976) a number of folks that year forgot to put the ramrod back in the pipes and launched it ...

That's what happened a few years back over in Ireland [Republic of].

It brought instant legislation banning the use of BP in any public displays except the the firing of the mid-day gun on Spike Island in Cork Harbour.

In any case, possession of BP in the Republic of Ireland, unless you operate a quarry, is an offence under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, and attracts a healthy vacation in the 'House of Grey onesies'.

 

[hanshi]

I've used a good amount of non-graphited (?) powder for both targets and hunting. Jack's Battle Powder always worked just fine in my guns but did clump some. Compared with regular Goex bridging and clumping did happen on occasion but not with Goex. JPG was manufactured by Goex as a cheaper alternative but it still performed excellently for my friends and I. As for pan powder soup from humidity - experienced it on a few occasions - it made no difference if it was premium Goex or JBP. The reason of course is that once it's fired, a flintlock pan has fouling which DOES turn to soup and any fresh powder added to it. Careful wiping of the pan after each shot solved that problem. And in a clean gun I've never had problems with prime turning to mush even when I was hunting in heavy rain.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

I've used a good amount of non-graphited (?) powder for both targets and hunting. Jack's Battle Powder always worked just fine in my guns but did clump some. Compared with regular Goex bridging and clumping did happen on occasion but not with Goex. JPG was manufactured by Goex as a cheaper alternative but it still performed excellently for my friends and I. As for pan powder soup from humidity - experienced it on a few occasions - it made no difference if it was premium Goex or JBP. The reason of course is that once it's fired, a flintlock pan has fouling which DOES turn to soup and any fresh powder added to it. Careful wiping of the pan after each shot solved that problem. And in a clean gun I've never had problems with prime turning to mush even when I was hunting in heavy rain.

I was deer hunting with a friend in Virginia in hot and humid weather. I was using 3F and he was using 3f but had 4F for his prime. He had soup problems and I did not. I have done a number of reenactments where it was raining and that caused all kinds of problems for us (VA7 regiments).

 

[david w]

"For blackpowder that doesn’t have a graphite coating, you need to have an explosives license. Graphite treated powder requires no license, so I would surmise that graphite coated powder would be measurably less energetic than none graphite treated blackpowder."

Rock Home Isle could you please explain that statement further. If you are referring to the seller they are required to have an explosives license to sell either. An individual (buyer) does not need a license to possess any legally purchased powder of either type.

My understanding, but I could be wrong. Graphite is added to eliminate the static electricity hazard.

 

[William Lincoln]

I though that graphite reduced static electric sparks and made agitating the powder safer.

 

[PatrickL01]

Yes, graphite is an electrical conductor so graphited powder is much less likely to be ignited by static discharge. Of course it is also a dry lubricant. It has a lot of neat properties.

 

[Dphar1950]

The source of carbon will determine how dirty the powder is going to be…some carbon sources will have a higher ash content than others. The ash content will determine how “dirty” the powder is when it burns.

Charcoal is very important and how its burned. Also how and for how long its milled will effect fouling.

 

[Dphar1950]

I found this piece of information on the Skylighter (fireworks) site yesterday and wonder if it might be where some of the misinformation concerning legal issues comes from. It clearly states that a license is needed to buy A (unglazed) powder which is not true.

" Fireworks manufacturers prefer the "A" series black powder to be used in fireworks. But you are required to have an ATF license to buy that type black powder legally. However you don't need an ATF license to purchase up to 50 lbs. of sporting grade (G) black powders, which are chemically identical."

If the sporting powder is chemically identical to fireworks powder I am not sure it will qualify as “sporting powder”. Since post American Civil War (at least) the sporting powders, the the TRUE sporting powders were not identical to musket powder or other gov’t contract powders chemically. The Gov’t has had no use for propellant grade powders for quite some time, well over 100 years so today military contract powder means fuse and booster powders. But Goex at one time did not appreciate having it in print that their powder was sub-standard when they were being sued at the time (1980 or so) for an accident on a grenade range when on went off “early”. I do know that while in VN in late 1970 all the baseball grenades were recalled We were told not to use them since we were on a mission at the time, due to an accident of some sort. And if the powder is dried in rotating drums after breaking and sifting it will for a glaze naturally since some of the nitrate will migrate to the surface as the water comes to the surface and evaporates. Quality powders had no graphite back in the day and in the BP era the British military would reject any powder coated with “black lead”. AND “G” from my information indicated Graphite not glazed. At least back in the day. But it was used to make cut rate powder look better and it also makes it flow better in machinery or even through a funnel. Thus it will not clump as Swiss sometimes will.

 

[IanH]

I know this thread is old and has wandered off topic, but since you brought it up, yes, how well the whole mix is incorporated affects how close to it's not very good best stoichiometric burn and residues it can get.

Also, as someone pointed out and I want to reinforce, the lower case "g" means "glazed" which was explained well. Sometimes steam pipes were run through the glazing barrels to help add heat as the powder kernel friction heat together with a very specific diameter and rotation speed of the glazing drums to create physical impacts of the powder caused the grains to very slightly melt, polish, and re-absorb their dust into the surface pores. Graphite may or may not be added during glazing, and has nothing to do with the "g" designation.

Static electricity will not set off gunpowder. A 60K volt spark plug will not set it off, either. Duration of spark heat is too short.

Also, graphiting ******* ignition somewhat, creating powder that is more difficult to ignite with rock and steel than green powder, but also lengthens the burn curve slightly and has a small but significant effect on resistance to incidental moisture exposure. Glazing has a tremendously beneficial effect on powder flow and graphite further enhances this property, particularly with regard to how the powder settles repeatedly and to the correct bulk volume density when poured into a measure.

 

[Dphar1950]

Yes, graphite is an electrical conductor so graphited powder is much less likely to be ignited by static discharge. Of course it is also a dry lubricant. It has a lot of neat properties.

The carbon in the powder is a conductor as well And being compressed in the manufacture increases its conductivity over as burned charcoal. Graphite has such a high ignition temperature that it will not combust with the powder and increases the fouling in the bore slightly.

 

[Dphar1950]

I know this thread is old and has wandered off topic, but since you brought it up, yes, how well the whole mix is incorporated affects how close to it's not very good best stoichiometric burn and residues it can get.

Also, as someone pointed out and I want to reinforce, the lower case "g" means "glazed" which was explained well. Sometimes steam pipes were run through the glazing barrels to help add heat as the powder kernel friction heat together with a very specific diameter and rotation speed of the glazing drums to create physical impacts of the powder caused the grains to very slightly melt, polish, and re-absorb their dust into the surface pores. Graphite may or may not be added during glazing, and has nothing to do with the "g" designation.

Static electricity will not set off gunpowder. A 60K volt spark plug will not set it off, either. Duration of spark heat is too short.

Also, graphiting ******* ignition somewhat, creating powder that is more difficult to ignite with rock and steel than green powder, but also lengthens the burn curve slightly and has a small but significant effect on resistance to incidental moisture exposure. Glazing has a tremendously beneficial effect on powder flow and graphite further enhances this property, particularly with regard to how the powder settles repeatedly and to the correct bulk volume density when poured into a measure.

The Potassium Nitrate migrating to the surface forms the glossy film seen on quality powders during drying in the drums. The rotation also tends to round the grains slightly, softening the edges which also ******* the initial burn rate a little. But powder with an extra part or percentage of PN tends to increase the burn rate a little. For a propellant powder graphite is not a plus. Its the opposite. So SFAIK the militaries of the BP era refused graphited powders. But AFTER the advent of smokeless for almost everything and Dupont buying ALL powder plants (both kinds) and basically destroying all BP production other than Moosic many really great Amercian made propellant powders were gone and Dupont’s Moosic plant was a military powder plant and commercial propellant powders were just a side line since the military was the real money maker. And they were not using it as a propellant by that time. The Dupont was forced to divest in an anti-trust action and other smokeless powder makers re-appeared. But American BP was all Dupont. The current plant at Minden was a military back up plant in case it was needed and I believe is on a military reservation. AND I also knew that it would be put back into production since the military needs fuses and boosters.