FFFF?

[rodwha]

Then, why is it not broadly accepted and done?

The few people in Europe I’ve seen speak of this have stated that it is common there. Just look at the older containers:

e85 finder

 

[bigted]

4F and finer have been found in old cartridges for ever. Both old copper and paper.

The steel now in these new revolvers is stronger by a bunch than the old original Colts that those old cartridges were loaded in the day.

No skin off my nose. My job is not to convince but to be satisfied with my own findings. Those that seek truth will find it. Those that enjoy passing on what they hear or read will continue doing so. I was tought to question everything until satisfied with my findings ... I am

 

[springfield art]

I want faster fps. Can I go 4F? I don't want to have to go to modern substitute.
How about powder dust?

How much can colt clones take before breaking?

Geez! Just go with a ctg. gun! BTW, "substitutes" are hard to ignite. Stick with Black!

 

[rodwha]

Geez! Just go with a ctg. gun! BTW, "substitutes" are hard to ignite. Stick with Black!

I’ve shot about 2 lbs of Pyrodex P and RS, and many, many pounds of Triple 7 with no difficulties setting them off, typically with a Rem #10. This is through a rifle and 2 revolvers. But I mostly shoot Olde Eynsford.

 

[rodwha]

Geez! Just go with a ctg. gun! BTW, "substitutes" are hard to ignite. Stick with Black!

Oh, but if I wasn’t aware of Olde Eynsford, Swiss, or Triple 7 I’d be looking at 4F since just about everything else gives very poor performance if one wants to hunt. I’m satisfied with what I’m using though. It performs better I'm sure.

 

[Irishmusket]

While it is certainly up to the shooter to follow advice they think is best when loads are involved, any gun improperly loaded can fail catastrophically. However, original, disassembled .45 Colt cartridges have been found to be loaded with a powder similar in granulation to 4F. These old loads managed 900 plus fps in revolvers with iron frames. I would imagine a similar granulation was not eschewed in old c&b revolvers.

I wouldn't hesitate to use 4F in c&b revolvers under .44 cal. I might give some thought to this practice in the big .44s and approach the load carefully. Same with squirrel caliber rifles or maybe a bit larger. I make NO recommendation, just expressing my opinion and what I'd be willing to do.

You are right 4f was used in 32 sw&colt22 rf41 rf etc it can be used in small cal muzzle loading rifles 31 36 etc with 25 or30 grain charges will give some what better velocity than heavier charges 3f have experimented with in my colt 31 it shot fine more zip .How ever gun manufacturers donot list 4f loads for rifles or shotguns rifles or muskets for safety concerns which are valid .Contrary to some voices you can blowup your muzzle loader absolutely with blackpowder make no mistake about that.

 

[Erwan]

The few people in Europe I’ve seen speak of this have stated that it is common there. Just look at the older containers

Hi, rodwha,
I remember this picture well and so does my GIMP....
This is true that we use Swiss 4Fg for small guns, mostly handguns ( from .31 to .36 and sometimes till .45 cal.), we use also 4Fg for primer and sometimes a 4Fg/0b mix (50/50)....
During the competitions, of course, we use 0b pure as primer...

 

[rodwha]

Hi, rodwha,
I remember this picture well and so does my GIMP....
This is true that we use Swiss 4Fg for small guns, mostly handguns ( from .31 to .36 and sometimes till .45 cal.), we use also 4Fg for primer and sometimes a 4Fg/0b mix (50/50)....
During the competitions, of course, we use 0b pure as primer...

Have you tried both 3F and 4F in your pistol(s)? I’m curious about the priming too along with your findings in whatever calibers you’ve tried.

Honestly with the performance Olde Eynsford and Triple 7 provide I just don’t see much need. But if/when I get my hands on a Colt Police I think it would be mandatory to try, which means I’d have to try it in my .44/.45 revolvers too, and it would have to be Swiss since there is no other here that I’m aware of.

 

[Erwan]

Have you tried both 3F and 4F in your pistol(s)? I’m curious about the priming too along with your findings in whatever calibers you’ve tried.

Yes, I did, but I don't think that can carry something interesting to compare with American powders : apart the Pyrodex, forbidden in France to replace the BP, (but... ) I never use any BP like Goex and can't compare...
With the 4Fg, for the .36 the charge is mostly around 12 grains for target shooting at 27 yards and around 15 grains to 55 yards (also for target)...
For the .44 the most used is around 15 grains at 27 yards and 17 grains at 50 m (~55 yards)...
About the French and Swiss 3Fg that is used with rifles from the caliber .45 to the .50 and .54, also for target shooting from 55 to 110 yards (I use it with my Sharps 59/63 Pedersoli at 54 grains)...
For the last chrono. with 60 grains of 3Fg and 500 grains bullets the average speed was 353ms (1158fps) with a Tryon Pedersoli...
Knowing that the liveliness of Swiss and French powders depends only on the particle size (granulometry), I let you try to extrapolate: I have no basis for comparison to judge their liveliness compared to American powders although I know from what I have read that they seem livelier.
All I can say is that Swiss powders are a little less nervous than French powders, but more consistent in power and speed so in what concern the accuracy...
After that the other powder like 2Fg or musket 1Fg, they are really made for the big bores and used with charges of more than 65 grains...

 

[rodwha]

Yes, I did, but I don't think that can carry something interesting to compare with American powders : apart the Pyrodex, forbidden in France to replace the BP, (but... ) I never use any BP like Goex and can't compare...
With the 4Fg, for the .36 the charge is mostly around 12 grains for target shooting at 27 yards and around 15 grains to 55 yards (also for target)...
For the .44 the most used is around 15 grains at 27 yards and 17 grains at 50 m (~55 yards)...
About the French and Swiss 3Fg that is used with rifles from the caliber .45 to the .50 and .54, also for target shooting from 55 to 110 yards (I use it with my Sharps 59/63 Pedersoli at 54 grains)...
For the last chrono. with 60 grains of 3Fg and 500 grains bullets the average speed was 353ms (1158fps) with a Tryon Pedersoli...
Knowing that the liveliness of Swiss and French powders depends only on the particle size (granulometry), I let you try to extrapolate: I have no basis for comparison to judge their liveliness compared to American powders although I know from what I have read that they seem livelier.
All I can say is that Swiss powders are a little less nervous than French powders, but more consistent in power and speed so in what concern the accuracy...
After that the other powder like 2Fg or musket 1Fg, they are really made for the big bores and used with charges of more than 65 grains...

Our Olde Eynsford black powder performs quite similarly to Swiss. But they don’t make a 4F version.

Is the French powder KN-something or other? I recall someone speaking of an energetic French powder, along with a South African one as well. It seems one or both were thought to be a little more potent than Swiss. Is that what you meant “Swiss powders are a little less nervous than French powders?”

Our standard Goex seems to be as potent as Schuetzen but dirtier from what I’ve read. I don’t bother shooting weak powders since these are for hunting.

 

[Erwan]

It is a bit complex when comparing powders of different country : the Wano (Schutzen) is German, all the PNF (Vectant) are French, and the Swiss are .... Swiss...

I don't understand the meaning of "KN"...

I never try the Goex but did try the Wano powder, it was a powder not so "energetic" as the Swiss and the French and much more "dirtying" than the other Swiss and French...

Conversely, the Swiss and French have the qualities of their defects :

- The Swiss at the same charge/bullet/rifle or handgun is not able to get the speeds of the French powder, but those Swiss powders have a better regularity and consistency, they dirty a little less too...

- The French powders are able to reach higher speeds, but they are less consistent and a bit messier, not as much as the Wano for sure but a little more than the Swiss...

- The French powders have a speeder inflammation than the Swiss because they are not so constant in the granulometry...

This partly explains the success of Swiss powders compared to French ones: they are not better, but more regular, which is very important for a target shooter, but not for a hunter...

As for the Wano, nobody really wants it and even the Germans prefer to buy Swiss powder...

The more "energetic" French powder is the Vectant PNF4P (4FG) et la plus "energetic" Swiss is the N°1 (4Fg)...

The Wano/Schuetzen is good for hunting and training...

 

[rodwha]

PNS, that’s what they were talking about.

As a hunter I want consistent over fast as long as I have a humane enough of velocity to begin with. I find my gun’s most accurate load starting at 25 grns of 3F energetic powder.

 

[Erwan]

PNS, never heard of, but PNF every day or so ....
The name PNF corresponds to the French powders: PNF4 (or PNF4P), PNF1, PNF2 and PNC (Poudre Nationale de Chasse)...
Maybe some people (French speakers in Switzerland: 4 languages including French) talk about Swiss powders and in this case there would be PNS1 (Swiss National Powder N°1), PNS2 (Swiss National Powder N°2) etc, etc, simple guess from me...
Apart from this way of thinking, I don't see what could be a PNS powder in Europe...
To come back to your subject of 3Fg it is the most used powder in our country and the one that gives the best results: 37 grains of PNF2 or Swiss N°2 and Minié (Hensel mold) bullets in my Tryon 50m, 50 grains with my Hawken .50cal., 58 grains in the Tryon 100m with 500 grains bullets, 54 grains with the Sharps, etc, etc...
I use very little 4Fg because I hardly shoot handguns anymore, but my wife uses this grade of powder with her .36 Remington...

 

[toot]

The few people in Europe I’ve seen speak of this have stated that it is common there. Just look at the older containers:

e85 finder

OK! so what would you use 5fg, BP, in?

 

[Grenadier1758]

I would use 5fg in the pan.

 

[rodwha]

OK! so what would you use 5fg, BP, in?

I've never concerned myself much with it so I don’t think I’d find a need for it. I’d venture to guess it’s flash pan powder, but I don’t see a need if your main charge works fine in the pan too.

The one fellow mentioned using it as a duplex priming compound in small charges for match shooting. I guess it does well in that situation too.

 

[bobthemotorcycle]

Can't believe that this thread has went on for so long but my beautiful 1851 barrel on a 1860 stubby frame gets no attention. It's a work of art.

Pictures don't do it justice.

 

[deerstalkert]

the thread goes on because everybody has a different opinion.
all that can be said about your 51/60 you said!

 

[rodwha]

Can't believe that this thread has went on for so long but my beautiful 1851 barrel on a 1860 stubby frame gets no attention. It's a work of art.
View attachment 84197

Pictures don't do it justice.

At first I felt the barrel was just too long for that grip, but the more I looked at it the more I’m wondering if it makes it. I’d need to see it and handle it I guess.

 

[hawkeye2]

I have an unmentionable Colt with a birdshead grip and a 5 1/2" barrel, handles great.