I understnd there is a difference is quality, pressure, power between Swiss and Goex (or at least quite a few folks seem to think so). My question is - Is GOEX FFFG equivalent to SWISS FFG? Is one man's FFG another man's FFFG??? PJB
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FFG vsFFFG
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paulvallandigham
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The two powders you ask about are " close " but not the same. Goex FFg is closer to Swiss 1 1/2 Fg. Goex FFg is closer to Swiss FFg.
You are dealing with different countries, one using the metric system of measurements, and the other using our English system of measurements. Besides slightly different formulas used to make the actual black powder, they two countries use different grid sizes to screen the powder to size, and, obviously, you already understand that they size( label) the powders differently. Swiss uses a different wood for its charcoal/carbon, and claims that it is a purer form of carbon that what is done here in the States. Goex is apparently using a variety of hardwoods, and while quality control used to be pretty rough, in the last couple of years I have noticed both better quality control, and less residue in my barrels. The price on the Swiss powder is the main determinant for most shooters as it cost considerably more than does Goex, or Wano, or Schuetzen, or Graf powders. IO tried to find some Schuetzen powder in June when I was at Friendship, to try, but did not ask the right people apparently. Even commercial Row dealers I know personally did not know anyone on the grounds that had that powder, or Wano, or Graf. The NMLRA powder magazine did have Swiss and Goex for sale, as usual.
You are dealing with different countries, one using the metric system of measurements, and the other using our English system of measurements. Besides slightly different formulas used to make the actual black powder, they two countries use different grid sizes to screen the powder to size, and, obviously, you already understand that they size( label) the powders differently. Swiss uses a different wood for its charcoal/carbon, and claims that it is a purer form of carbon that what is done here in the States. Goex is apparently using a variety of hardwoods, and while quality control used to be pretty rough, in the last couple of years I have noticed both better quality control, and less residue in my barrels. The price on the Swiss powder is the main determinant for most shooters as it cost considerably more than does Goex, or Wano, or Schuetzen, or Graf powders. IO tried to find some Schuetzen powder in June when I was at Friendship, to try, but did not ask the right people apparently. Even commercial Row dealers I know personally did not know anyone on the grounds that had that powder, or Wano, or Graf. The NMLRA powder magazine did have Swiss and Goex for sale, as usual.
Thanks. Makes sense to me. I believe you meant to say GOEX FFFG is close to Swiss FFG - is that right? Anyhow, the only reason I got Swiss is because I am new to it and heasrd it was as good as you could find at this time. I'll try Goex or Graf and Sons, which is quite reasinable.
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You'd think being a lawyer he'd proof read his posts! :rotf:
Walks with fire
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The fouling from the Swiss 2f is drier and stiffer than the Goex 2f in my experience. Not bad but just different than Goex which was more moist and softer. I have been shooting Goex 3f lately and I think I will stick with it. It is very accurate in my rifles; even more so than the Swiss 2f of which I really didn't like other than the fouling drawing less moisture so the pan stayed drier. The pan need wiped out with the Goex but not the Swiss. Perhaps the Swiss 3f would be better but I really like the Goex 3f. My rifles are .50 calibers in barrel lengths from 21" to 32". At the suggestion of a highly respected member I gave the 3f a through workout at the range; and also reduced my vent liner hole to .070 (#50 drill) from the 5/64" I had been using with the 2f. Ignition seemed to be a little faster, less fouling, a slight accuracy increase, and a bit more velocity with the 3f. I think some of the problems with fouling in my rifles is that the 2f is not fully consumed in my shorter barrels and results in more fouling. The Swiss 2f did result in a drier bore and flashpan after the shot than either of the Goex granulations though. I liked that but it was a little stiffer in consistancy but did wipe out easily. The fouling did not attract moisture like Goex did. I need to examine it a little more under different conditions and charge rates. I still want to give the Swiss 3f a try yet but I can't buy it locally and it will be quite a while before I order any more powder.
I found the Swiss 2f granulation to be very similiar in appearance to Goex 3f but they performed differently. In fact; When I first opened a can of Swiss 2f I was sure that they had sent me 3f by mistake. The recoil from the same charge level of Swiss 2f is not quite as sharp as the recoil of the Goex 3f. Not that either one was bad (90 grain charges) just a little different. I think the velocities are very close; Goex won on the accuracy testing for my hunting charges but I have a good bit more of it so later this summer I will shoot it some more and play with load development a bit more. I can't see enough benifit at the premium price of the Swiss. The Swiss 2f is plenty hot enough so I cannot imagine what Swiss 3f would be like.
I found the Swiss 2f granulation to be very similiar in appearance to Goex 3f but they performed differently. In fact; When I first opened a can of Swiss 2f I was sure that they had sent me 3f by mistake. The recoil from the same charge level of Swiss 2f is not quite as sharp as the recoil of the Goex 3f. Not that either one was bad (90 grain charges) just a little different. I think the velocities are very close; Goex won on the accuracy testing for my hunting charges but I have a good bit more of it so later this summer I will shoot it some more and play with load development a bit more. I can't see enough benifit at the premium price of the Swiss. The Swiss 2f is plenty hot enough so I cannot imagine what Swiss 3f would be like.
When I consider all the aspects of blackpowders such as ignition speed, reliability, consistency, accuracy, fouling, and price...Goex is the hands down best overall price / performance black powder available...plus, it's made right herte in the good old USA.
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:thumbsup:
roundball said:
What he said. :thumbsup:
paulvallandigham
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Sorry about my human imperfections. I was in a hurry to attend a board meeting to discuss the Second Amendment case now pending before the Supreme Court of the United States. Its not my spelling, but my typing that gets in trouble. I did not have the time to proof read, and catch the mistake, I can assure you that I hit the key 3 times, but it apparently was too fast, and only printed twice.
Yes, I meant to say that Goex FFFg is closer to Swiss FFg powder. But, again, the problem is that one is made in Europe, using metric measurements while the other is made in America, using an English system of measurements. The granules are not exactly the same size, so the smaller grains burn faster, giving higher pressures and velocity. Add to that the fact that the formula used by the European company is slightly different in the ration of potassium nitrate to Sulphur used, and you have a faster powder with the Swiss FFg powder, than the Goex FFFg powder. If you compare the prices for the powders Its hard to justify using the Swiss powders as a steady diet, for anything other than a match grade target gun.
Yes, I meant to say that Goex FFFg is closer to Swiss FFg powder. But, again, the problem is that one is made in Europe, using metric measurements while the other is made in America, using an English system of measurements. The granules are not exactly the same size, so the smaller grains burn faster, giving higher pressures and velocity. Add to that the fact that the formula used by the European company is slightly different in the ration of potassium nitrate to Sulphur used, and you have a faster powder with the Swiss FFg powder, than the Goex FFFg powder. If you compare the prices for the powders Its hard to justify using the Swiss powders as a steady diet, for anything other than a match grade target gun.
Herb
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I tested Goex 3F and Swiss 2F and 3F in a 38" .40 Jacob Wigle flintlock I built. .390 cast balls, .020 pillow ticking, lube Murphy Oil Soap and 91% alcohol, 1-1. No wiping between shots nor cleaning between powders. Oehler 35P chronograph. With 40 grains of Goex 3F, 5 shots averaged (Mean) 1703 fps, spread (E) 47 fps. With same but Swiss 3F, five shots M 1884 fps, E 40 fps. With 40 grains of Swiss 2F, six M 1753, E 38 fps. With 60 grains of Swiss 2F, 6 shots M 2117 fps, E 64 fps.
Jusst finished up a .58 flintlock fullstock Hawken, 36" Green River Rifle Works barrel. .562 cast balls and .020 pillow ticking, lube 2/3 MOS 1/3 alcohol. Goex 3F, 80 grains M 1497 fps, E41, five shots. Goex 2F, ditto, M 1389 E51. Then four more, M 1396 E 33. Added a leather .20 over powder wad, 6 M 1331 E 54. Then 80 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 same wad, five M 1432 E 40.
With a .575 ball and .020 pillow ticking only, 90 grains of Goex 2F, six shots M 1441 fps, E 38. This with the White Lightning flash hole liner and .055 hole. Some flashes in pan with all powders so far. Opened to .0625, same load, five M 1419 fps, M 23 (lost about 22 fps, a brief test but a real loss).
Then to 90 grains of Swiss 1 1/2, no OPW, .575 ball. Eight shots but got only 2 velocities (radio signal interference with chronograph), 2 M 1507 fps. Then same load but with .562 balls, 90 gr Swiss 1 1/2, four M 1549. With 100 grains of Goex 2F and a .562, five M 1525 E 19. Five Swiss 1 1/2 M 1639 E 26. There was no wiping between shots nor cleaning between powders in any of these tests. These tests were done between bore lappings, but I doubt that made any real difference in velocity, didn't seem to change accuracy, which was good from the start.
Jusst finished up a .58 flintlock fullstock Hawken, 36" Green River Rifle Works barrel. .562 cast balls and .020 pillow ticking, lube 2/3 MOS 1/3 alcohol. Goex 3F, 80 grains M 1497 fps, E41, five shots. Goex 2F, ditto, M 1389 E51. Then four more, M 1396 E 33. Added a leather .20 over powder wad, 6 M 1331 E 54. Then 80 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 same wad, five M 1432 E 40.
With a .575 ball and .020 pillow ticking only, 90 grains of Goex 2F, six shots M 1441 fps, E 38. This with the White Lightning flash hole liner and .055 hole. Some flashes in pan with all powders so far. Opened to .0625, same load, five M 1419 fps, M 23 (lost about 22 fps, a brief test but a real loss).
Then to 90 grains of Swiss 1 1/2, no OPW, .575 ball. Eight shots but got only 2 velocities (radio signal interference with chronograph), 2 M 1507 fps. Then same load but with .562 balls, 90 gr Swiss 1 1/2, four M 1549. With 100 grains of Goex 2F and a .562, five M 1525 E 19. Five Swiss 1 1/2 M 1639 E 26. There was no wiping between shots nor cleaning between powders in any of these tests. These tests were done between bore lappings, but I doubt that made any real difference in velocity, didn't seem to change accuracy, which was good from the start.
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