First Chainfire

[gooddw]

OK, get ready to pile on. Call me stupid or whatever. Here are the facts.

I have an 1858 Remington. It was my first blackpowder anything. I read all I could about the gun and loading, etc.
I kept reading about lube over the ball. I reasoned that Civil War era cavalry did not have time to do all the things that were talked about (filler, lube, etc.). So, what was the big deal about chainfires. I used .454 balls and got a good seat. I filled the cylinder to the max on all 6 rounds and fired away, no lube, just powder, ball, and cap.

Well, I fired about 150 rounds this way with no trouble. Filled to the max with Pyrodex, that gun would put a round ball completely through a shovel blade. My .357 would barely do that, so don't tell me it is equivalent to a 38 special.

So, today, I was shooting again. I pulled the trigger and it misfired. The cap of the cylinder that misfired stayed on the nipple so I fired the next cylinder. Result - boom - boom. I was shocked. The cylinder that misfired went off. It didn't cause a problem except a little scouring on the side of the frame in front of the cylinder.

I believe the misfired cap actually went off and fired the cylinder though I'm not sure.

I then fired my 1860 Army the same way without any trouble except after the sixth ball a cap jammed the works (again). I had to take the barrel and cylinder off to get to the cap. That has never happened with my Remmy but is the second time my Army has jammed with a cap in the works.

OK, go ahead, jump on. I still say soldiers didn't do all the things you guys do with lube and all.

 

It may have been a hang-fire and not a chain-fire. However, if the cap broke and didn't fire, the flash from the next shot may have set off that first cylinder. Many folks have concluded that chain-fires start at the back of the cylinder - in circumstances similar to yours.

You don't have to use lube on top of the balls but a greased felt wad under the ball does seem to help me with fouling over a long shooting session.

I'm glad you weren't hurt.

 

[Rat]

IHMO, chain fires have not really be completely explained, still a matter of opinion and conjecture.

I shot BP revolvers for over 25 years without ever a chain fire. Mostly without any lube over the ball. Just recently I got my first one.

I tend to believe they are caused buy flame entering the ajoining nipples, but I don't dis-believe that fire could flash past the ball under some circumstances. Or maybe they are caused by both.

It was my 1860 that chain-fired recently, and FOUR chambers went off, which sheared the loading lever catch off the bottome of the barrel from the recoil. It was BRAZED on! There was no further damage. The funny thing is that I was shooting for the first time with 777. ??

I think a wonder wad under the ball is as good as grease over the ball, and any loaded chambers should probably be tightly capped....other than that, perhaps the possibility is just always gonna be there.

I'm not sure if anyone completely understands the mystery of chain-fire!

::

By the way, the comparison to the .38 spl is based on the FPE formula, which is merely flawed mathmatical gee-whizzardry, and as you have observed has not much to do with real-life results. I believe even the .36 Navy (a TRUE .38"!!) is a better killer in real life than the .38spl.

Rat

 

[ol vern]

I am with you, I quit using any lub under or over the ball about 20 years ago and I have never had a chain fire.( knock wood) The only time I used corn meal was over light loads to fill out the chamber.



Tip the best way I found to keep spent caps from jamming up the works is to tilt the gun over to the right as you cock it. Most of the time the spent cap will fall clear of the gun.

:thumbsup:

 

[WRussell]

OK, I'll chime in with my one & only chainfire experience. I was shooting a well-worm Tranter 1853 revolver, my first experience with a cap & ball revolver. The balls were not getting sheared or even compressed much going in the cylinder. I was carefully covering the balls with crisco and had no problems the first few cylinder fulls. Then I tried it without the crisco - 3 (out of 5) at once. Revolver undamaged and me a little wiser, I went back to crisco over the balls and had no more problems.

I have no doubt chainfires can happen at the cap end of the cylinder, just never happened to me.

 

[K9_75]

I was present as a friend fired a loned original colt 1860. The gun was well used and looked not so good I thought. I was offered to try but declined. Three cylinders went of as my friend fired the first shot. Luckily he wasn't hurt. The owner of the gun said that he now PROBABLY would not fire it again... :youcrazy:
//K9

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

Remember,
This is my opinion, and may mean nothing to anyone else but me.... so bear with me. I'd like to hear some more stories of other people's experiences with chainfires and more theories about what happens.

It's surprising that some "smart cookie" hasn't put together a high speed camera outfit and revolver setup (that can be triggered remotely), and gone through various scenarios to see what actually happens in the event of a chainfire. Of course, the experiment might cost several revolvers in the process, and the safety of the experimenters must come first!

Doesn't matter whether the chainfire occurs from the FRONT --space around a loaded ball/bullet, or the BACK--around a loose fitting cap or empty nipple. The cap(s) on the offending chamber(s) is(are) going to be ignited by the burning powder in either case.

The problem is compounded even more when multiple chambers (more than just 1 adjacent chamber) fire--which makes the "loose cap theory" seem less likely. The reason I say this is that the grease/sealant gets burned out of other chambers when the gun is fired. Take notice next time. It is possible from the fire and blast to end up with very little lube after a couple of shots. Also from the recoil, a looser fitting ball could start migrating forward in the chamber.

Reloaders of modern cartridge magnum loads like the .44 mag know to put a heavy crimp on the bullet so it doesn't move forward during recoil.

BUT, also... could a loose fitting cap also slide backwards, maybe even fall off, during recoil? That would be a dangerous condition, as the empty nipple would be just like a vent on a flintlock gun? It's something to think about...

Fire a cap-n-ball cylinder off at night (where you can safely do this) to check out what happens. The resulting fireball during one shot is large enough to almost envelop the whole gun. Makes you wonder why the whole thing doesn't chain fire every time!

Here's a few more things...
In the heat of close quarters combat, once a revolver was emptied, then sword, knife, bayonet, fists, (whatever) was used (unless another loaded revolver was at hand). I doubt there were many opportunities to see how proper reloading procedures were adhered to during battle. (Besides that, wouldnt' pre-made paper "cartridges" have been used--not loose powder and ball?) AND, weren't extra loaded cylinders carried, OR extra revolvers carried, if the soldier wanted faster "reloading"...?!?!?! Revolvers were also mainly a supplementary cavalry weapon (OR an officer's badge of rank alongside his sabre) and once exhausted, the sword was the primary weapon--swords didn't need reloaded.

Note: I've had one chainfire occur on me in the past 30 yrs of firing cap-n-ball revolvers. It was a Navy Arms 1860 Colt. (a very good revolver too!) After it happened, I stopped immediately, pulled the wedge, took off the barrel and pulled the cylinder. The top chamber (under the hammer) was fired and also the one to the left (looking forward from shooting position). The caps from those two fired chambers were totally gone. The rest of the caps were intact and tight, but the grease from the remaining four chambers was virtually gone and the balls were dry with fouling. The wedge had a lead streak on it from the 2nd ball that fired and it was a little hard to remove at first, but still I was dumb lucky. Reinstalled the parts, put more grease in the loaded chambers and finished firing. I was finished firing for that day too, and I went in the house to get something to calm my nerves. Very dumb lucky!

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[gooddw]

Think I may have an answer. I remembered that I was using #11 Remington caps. I had pinched them down so they wouldn't come off when I fired. I must have pinched that cap to much and deformed it leaving a gap that the fire from the adjacent cap went through when it was fired. I buy my caps from Basspro. The last time they were out of #10s so I bought some 11s. I will use #10 from now on.

Thanks for not hammering me.

 

[Rat]

On stuck caps, I flip my 1860 up and back when I cock it for the next shot, kind of a over-the-shoulder flip.

I love the cap-n-ball revolvers, and really love the Remington Navy I have now, but when you look at the limited power, and the fact that you may only get one shot anyhow, (chain fire or stuck cap) it kind of makes the single shot pistols look pretty good!

:hmm:

Rat

 

[musketman]

OK, get ready to pile on. Call me stupid or whatever.

The fact that you are OK and alive is enough for me...

It's scary, that's for sure, good thing the gun was pointing down range...

Sounded more to me like you had a delayed ignition (perhaps due to some oil in the cylinder) and the charge was "fusing", when you cocked the next round and fired, the charge finally went off...

A chain fire would ignite from the front of the cylinder as the flash jumped to the adjacent chambers...

 

[merdean]

A long time ago I had a Navy Arms 1851 Navy .36. I loved that little revolver. I had to file the hammer notch deeper to get it to hit where I wanted but it always hit the target if I did my part.
Then one day I ran out of caps. Had been using CCI for 5 years. Went to the local gun store and he was out of CCI caps. So I bought NAVY ARMS brand caps. (What the hey, it was a Navy Arms revolver) Without changing anything but the cap, I had my 1st chain fire on the first shot. Scared the pss out of me. But I thought I had done something wrong. So, after taking the gun apart and checking everything out real carefully, I reloaded 5 chambers just like I always did. I made sure the loads were all covered with Crisco just like I always did. Checked to make sure the caps were tight. Pointed it downrange, cocked it and pulled the[url] trigger......Chain[/url] fire!!! Chamber under hammer fired and two chambers to left also fired!! My hand was numb for a couple of minutes but when I counted, all my fingers were still attached. Wedge pin screw was gone. Wedge was bent all out of shape. Loading lever catch was gone. Nerves were shot, too.
Gun went to gunsmith and was repaired. Went back to CCI caps. Never had another chain fire. Gun was stolen in 1994. Hope new owner used Navy Arms caps!
Point is, the only difference was caps. I am a firm believer that chain fires start at the caps!

 

[11th corps]

On a side note-
If you watch the movie Gettysburg closely, you can see in a scene on Little Round Top, J.L. Chamberlin, played by Jeff Daniels, is firing a revolver. from one of the camera angles you can see the lube over the balls. evidently he had not fired it yet, or maybe its some kind of Hollywood magic
BTW, I always lube the chambers on my Ruger Old Army's before firing them. And I have always used Crisco.

 

[jdixon]

I am still a chain fire virgin - couldn't tell you if they start from the front or the back.
Regarding caps however, if we agree that one not of the right size is the catalyst for a chain fire, there is something that you need to be aware of. I have found caps vary in size by different makes, even though they may say they are the same size. Diameter of #11 as much as .006", that is enough space for a spark to sneak around. Diameter is not the only consideration however; length of the cap can sometimes be a problem. The DGW catalog lists some popular caps and their sizes (page #660) as the following:
Alcan #10's .167 dia. .178 length
RWS 1075's .170 .170
Remington #11's .170 .190
Winchester #11's .175 .200
DGW's table doesn't list CCI's - but with a digital caliper I just checked some #11's I have here - inside diameter seems to be around 0.163, O.D. - 0.176, depth on the inside of the cap to the charge 0.117 and over-all length 0.165. I have mic'd the nipples on all my cap and balls and the caps I use on each are based on that measurement, not what the manufacturer says you need to use. There is just not the uniformity in size we think there is.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

I still can't guarantee you where the event takes place, front or back, either... but for an exercise, and to humour me...

Take your EMPTY revolver and with a pencil or pointer follow the path that a spark would have to take from the cap under the hammer, to get in to any space from a loose cap on an adjacent chamber. Make sure to note the directions the spark has to go to get into that other nipple.

Now at the front of the cylinder, imagine the powder flare from a shot going off and follow it in every direction and find the places where all the flame could go.

Please post your comments on what you discover...

 

[gooddw]

Good point. I have access to some digital mics. I will check the nipples on both my guns.

 

[mewing6003]

On a side note-
If you watch the movie Gettysburg closely, you can see in a scene on Little Round Top, J.L. Chamberlin, played by Jeff Daniels, is firing a revolver. from one of the camera angles you can see the lube over the balls. evidently he had not fired it yet, or maybe its some kind of Hollywood magic
BTW, I always lube the chambers on my Ruger Old Army's before firing them. And I have always used Crisco.

That lube is for firing blanks. In CW reenacting revolvers are loaded with about 20 grains FFFG and then filler. Topped off by grease, crisco, bore butter, peanut butter, etc. This keeps the loads from falling out of the cylinder.

 

[gooddw]

There is another possibility. The balls I was shooting were ones that I had cast. It could be that I had a hole or channel around the ball at some point. I hope that was the case. It disturbs me that it could have been the cap that chained. It seems to me that it would have happened more often it had been the cap.

J.R. has a good point about the varied sizes but I've always used Remingtons. I wonder how good their QC is? Working in manufacturing, I know that parts can vary even from the same source, especially at different run times.

 

[CrackStock]

If you really suspect that the ignition took place from the front of the cylinder, look for a burr at the chamber mouth. It can carve a groove in the ball when you ram it home.

If the balls are small for the chamber, mayber they backed out slightly when carried or under recoild from other shots.

Also, how much of a ring did your ball leave when driven into the chamber? Was it perfectly round or a fingernail clip that left part of the chamber uncovered?

After that. I would look at the caps.

Good luck.

CS

 

[unspellable]

My chain fire experience was years ago before I got involved with black powder revolvers. A friend handed me his revolver and when I fired it, the two chambers to the right of the top one went off. (Right from shooter's perspective.) It was still spouting fire so I threw it in a snowback. Probably a stupid thing to do but it was more reflex than thought.

Fast forward a number of years and I have been shooting a Ruger Old Army. So far, no chain fires.

I'm inclined to think a chain fire is more nerve wracking than dangerous. I've never heard of any serious injury from one.

 

[cayugad]

I had an 1860 Navy model that chain fired on me. I really forget how many cylinders went off. I think three fired. All I know is it sure scared the devil out of me and made my hand tingle a while. I was always so careful loading it and putting Spit Ball over the ball to make sure this exact thing would not happen.

After the incident the revolver would not cock properly, and the chain fire shook the front sight right off the revolver. Not wanting to risk anything or anyone else I took it to a qualified gunsmith. I ended up stretching the frame the gunsmith said. He fixed it but recommended it never be shot again. So I sold it as a wall hanger to a fellow. I advised him of the gunsmith's recommendations.

So far my 1858 New Army has not done this to me. I put a wonderwad between the powder and ball and still lube the end of the cylinders closed.