I love cap n ball revolvers, and I've been shooting them for over 30 years. During that time, I have never experienced a multiple discharge. Just lucky maybe. My current shooters are an 1862 Colt, a Ruger Old Army, an older Euroarms 1858 Rem, an 1861 Navy, and a Rem. pocket revolver. I use an over the powder wad in the Ruger, and "old Zip" over the ball in all the others. I don't do it to prevent multiple discharges, but to keep the fouling soft. After the heat of the first shot, the lube over the other cylinders isn't going to seal much anyhow. It is, however, imperative that the revolver is loaded with the proper size ball that shears of an even ring of lead all around, and that the chambers are unpitted. The ball, too must be perfectly smooth, without pitting or wrinkles. Nipples must be firmly seated and of the proper length so that the caps will have the proper clearance to the recoil shield, and the caps must be of the right size to properly seat and seal the nipple. Pinching a cap may result in a tight fit at 2 points on the nipple, but the resulting oval shape will not seal on the round nipple, and is therefore not a properly fitting cap. Pinching a cap to fit is a fine solution for an improper size cap on a caplock rifle, but it is a problem waiting to happen on a revolver.
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First Chainfire
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WV_Hillbilly
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You make a very good point and quite logical too... if caps were the cause, then why aren't there more chainfire events occurring due to that reason? More evidence for the jury...
Guest
My over-ball lube is fairly stiff (25% beeswax, 25% Murphy's soap, 50% Crisco) but it does keep fouling soft. Even in summer, it does not blow off the front of the cylinder after a shot or two. I never liked the real soupy stuff because it winds up all over the piece and my hands. Knock on wood, but with Remington #10 caps, a Wonder Wad and this lube, I have never had a chain fire in almost 30 years of shooting C&B's. I think they may originate from a variety of the different things that have been discussed here and each case has to be looked at on its own merits. Loose cap, bad fit, odd shaped ball, etc. or combinations thereof can all be culprits.
I did what you said and looked at the gun closely. I feel there is now way in hell that cap fire left that cap channel, mad a 90 degree turn, went back down the adjacent channel and back up under the cap, pinched or not. I think the ball was the culprit.
Another idea. I have a new, never fired 1858. I was showing my wife (She knows nothing about guns) how the gun grip was designed to roll up in your hand, then get cocked as the shooter brought it back down to fireing position. Just to keep from peening nipples, I placed a cap on each one. Did not intend to pop any, just didn't want risk peening a new nipple. Anyway, while I was demonstrating how the revolver rolls back in the hand, one of the caps fell off. I didn't even see it. My wife asked what fell off. I thought they were a tight fit but I guess they weren't as tight as I thought. Anyway....
If a cap fell off a nipple and went unnoticed by the shooter, a chain fire would be a likely occurance, would it not? Maybe this is another cause of chain fire. Both times I had chain fires, all the caps were gone after I pulled the trigger. I ass u me d they were blown off by the chain fire. Maybe they were gone before the chain fire?
:imo: :results: :m2c:
It is sometimes rough learning the hard way.
If a cap fell off a nipple and went unnoticed by the shooter, a chain fire would be a likely occurance, would it not? Maybe this is another cause of chain fire. Both times I had chain fires, all the caps were gone after I pulled the trigger. I ass u me d they were blown off by the chain fire. Maybe they were gone before the chain fire?
:imo: :results: :m2c:
It is sometimes rough learning the hard way.
WV_Hillbilly
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Yep, that's the same conclusion that I came to.
Best Regards and Always Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly
:agree: Snug fitting percussion caps are the key. Elmer Keith thought so too and reasoned that it was the shaking of the caps (back & forth) with the slamming action that was sufficient to cause them to ignite.
Thankfully you weren't hurt.
flintlockmdj
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Good idea Hill Billy but how do you know when a revolver is going to chain fire? Of all the members of this group and all the thousands of shots we have fired over the years none of us ever knew that we were going to have a chain fire. :imo:
Russ T Frizzen
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It would seem to be impossible for the flame front to get past a properly fitting ball--lube or no lube. If you are getting a ring of shaved lead when seating the ball, then the ball is completely and tightly sealing the chamber. The flash at the cylinder gap would have to burn away part of the ball to reach the adjacent charge. This is, to say the least, unlikely.
The cap flash doesn't turn corners, it simply fans out and covers the rear area of the cylinder. If the cap is improperly fitted to its cone, the flame front can get under the cap and ignite it . The caps ignition is not like an open flame but is an explosion, a burst of hot gases and their dynamics are totally different.
I've never had an accidental chainfire, but attempts to cause one were only successful when the cap was loose, never from the front of the cylinder.
The cap flash doesn't turn corners, it simply fans out and covers the rear area of the cylinder. If the cap is improperly fitted to its cone, the flame front can get under the cap and ignite it . The caps ignition is not like an open flame but is an explosion, a burst of hot gases and their dynamics are totally different.
I've never had an accidental chainfire, but attempts to cause one were only successful when the cap was loose, never from the front of the cylinder.
pepperbelly
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I am not an expert, and this is just speculation, but could the caps, if loose, back off the nipple during the recoil of the first round? That would leave an opening for the hot gas to enter the other nipples.
If the caps are loose they could back off during recoil, right?
Jim
If the caps are loose they could back off during recoil, right?
Jim
Russ T Frizzen
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If the caps aren't properly seated at loading, they very likely will back off or even fall off. This can cause a jam or if you are unlucky, a chain fire. I always pay close attention when capping, and use the right size caps. My guns and my body are too valuable to put at risk.
WV_Hillbilly
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No I'm not suggesting that we can foretell when a chainfire is going to occur... boy if I could do that, I could quit work and have my own TV show or something.
I do think that if we take precautions during the loading procedure to make sure that all the little duckies are in a row first, THEN IF something happens (unplanned) it is going to be more of a mystery to solve.
I WAS being a little facetious about the 90 deg turns with the spark and nipple, BUT was wanted more to show that there is much more than just a small spark that snakes around the rear of the cylinder and squeezes past the front of a loose fitting cap... I think that is just plain ridiculous. Have someone you trust fire off the revolver at night and watch how much fire and blast and flame envelops the gun and almost covers the shooters hand as well. I think there would be more of a chance of getting a secondary ignition from the combination of flame, recoil, and maybe some over sensitive priming compound.
I think sometimes we tend to just overlook what really happens (lots of things working in close conjunction with each other) once the hammer falls, and I was hoping to get some of you more scrutinous types to answer about what you had found.
I think there are two issues that are the most likely reasons that a chainfire happens:
ONE is that the "looser" cap(s) actually fall off and the empty nipple(s) aren't noticed, and of course that is like having a vent on a flintlock.
TWO is that too small a diameter ball is used. Example: putting a .451 ball in what should have had a .454 or .457 ball. Not all chambers are exactly the same tolerance either. An especially loose chamber and an undersized ball could add up to more clearance (than is safe) and that might let the fire from another shot ignite the front of that powder charge.
In both these instances it is a case of having too loose a fit at either front or back. The cap(s) could be falling off during pointing the muzzle skyward during cocking the hammer in preparation for the next shot (so that bits of fired cap do not fall into the internal works on a Colt style gun).
That brings up a very serious question... if you've ever had a chain fire (or more than one) PLEASE answer the following as accurately as possible.
What model gun(s) did you experience a chain fire with??? I think this might give us more clues as to what happens.
If you can recall; please name the manufacturer, the model, the style, the brand & size of caps, diameter of balls or bullets used, whether lubed wads or greased chambers, any and all information like that, whatever you can remember might be really important.
I'll start...
Navy Arms, 1860 Colt Army (4 screw model), Navy Arms #11 caps, Navy Arms .451 Balls, 28gr of Goex FFFg, Crisco shortening/grease over the loaded chambers, AND all 6 chambers were loaded.
Chain fire event occurred on FIRST shot fired. Had one additional chamber "chain fire" that was located immediately to left of the "topmost chamber" that was under the hammer.
There were no indications of any problems with loose ball or loose caps. Gun was scuffed slightly. No injuries to the gun or to me. I did notice thought that after the chain fire, practically all the grease was gone from the rest of the loaded chambers. Continued to fire the remaining 4 shots without incident.
Problem has NEVER occurred again... been shooting all kinds of cap-n-ball revolvers for approx. 30yrs.
Next...?
Safe Shooting!
WV_Hillbilly
I do think that if we take precautions during the loading procedure to make sure that all the little duckies are in a row first, THEN IF something happens (unplanned) it is going to be more of a mystery to solve.
I WAS being a little facetious about the 90 deg turns with the spark and nipple, BUT was wanted more to show that there is much more than just a small spark that snakes around the rear of the cylinder and squeezes past the front of a loose fitting cap... I think that is just plain ridiculous. Have someone you trust fire off the revolver at night and watch how much fire and blast and flame envelops the gun and almost covers the shooters hand as well. I think there would be more of a chance of getting a secondary ignition from the combination of flame, recoil, and maybe some over sensitive priming compound.
I think sometimes we tend to just overlook what really happens (lots of things working in close conjunction with each other) once the hammer falls, and I was hoping to get some of you more scrutinous types to answer about what you had found.
I think there are two issues that are the most likely reasons that a chainfire happens:
ONE is that the "looser" cap(s) actually fall off and the empty nipple(s) aren't noticed, and of course that is like having a vent on a flintlock.
TWO is that too small a diameter ball is used. Example: putting a .451 ball in what should have had a .454 or .457 ball. Not all chambers are exactly the same tolerance either. An especially loose chamber and an undersized ball could add up to more clearance (than is safe) and that might let the fire from another shot ignite the front of that powder charge.
In both these instances it is a case of having too loose a fit at either front or back. The cap(s) could be falling off during pointing the muzzle skyward during cocking the hammer in preparation for the next shot (so that bits of fired cap do not fall into the internal works on a Colt style gun).
That brings up a very serious question... if you've ever had a chain fire (or more than one) PLEASE answer the following as accurately as possible.
What model gun(s) did you experience a chain fire with??? I think this might give us more clues as to what happens.
If you can recall; please name the manufacturer, the model, the style, the brand & size of caps, diameter of balls or bullets used, whether lubed wads or greased chambers, any and all information like that, whatever you can remember might be really important.
I'll start...
Navy Arms, 1860 Colt Army (4 screw model), Navy Arms #11 caps, Navy Arms .451 Balls, 28gr of Goex FFFg, Crisco shortening/grease over the loaded chambers, AND all 6 chambers were loaded.
Chain fire event occurred on FIRST shot fired. Had one additional chamber "chain fire" that was located immediately to left of the "topmost chamber" that was under the hammer.
There were no indications of any problems with loose ball or loose caps. Gun was scuffed slightly. No injuries to the gun or to me. I did notice thought that after the chain fire, practically all the grease was gone from the rest of the loaded chambers. Continued to fire the remaining 4 shots without incident.
Problem has NEVER occurred again... been shooting all kinds of cap-n-ball revolvers for approx. 30yrs.
Next...?
Safe Shooting!
WV_Hillbilly
There was a gentleman, a few years ago who was interested enough in this phenomena to conduct a home experiment. He published his results on the net, but, I don't know if it's still there. He mounted a fully loaded cylinder on a steel plate, and instead of topping the chambers off with grease, filled them with a few grains of 3f. This was ignited by way of a fuse, and, try as he might, over and over again, he was never able to get the flash from in front of the ball to flash through and ignite any of the charges behind the balls. Of course, he was using a properly sized and sealed ball. An undersize ball or defective ball or chamber would certainly have yielded a different result.
I haven't had a chain fire but then I haven't been shooting that long. From reading the posts, I would vote for the fallen cap theory. From cleaning our revolvers we have observed that considerabe flash comes back from the nipple. This is evidenced from the crud that gets into the hammer area and down into the action. If the ball is seated and sealed I believe that flame reaching the clyinder past the ball is less likely that through the hole in the back of the cylinder (nipple with no cap). I also noted from the posts that everyone who has had a chain fire has had the chambers on the right or left go off. If the botton cylinder went off it could possibly blow apart the gun. Anyone have the bottom cylinder go off?
I think the experimenter you mention was a bit lacking in common sense. Of course he could not get a chainfire with the cylinder removed from the gun as there was nothing to "bounce" the fire back toward adjacent chambers. He proved nothing but his own foolishness.
I saw an episode on the History Channel where a pepperbox chainfired all barrels, not simultaneously but sort of full auto. I feel sure the gun had been modified, rigged to do that. I can see no way a pepperbox could crossfire at the front as the powder is so far from the muzzles and again there is nothing to bounce the fire back. I also doubt it could happen at the rear as the nipples stand out widely seperated and again nothing to direct the fire from one to another. I think the "gun guy" just knew how to put on a safe but spectacular show.
Revolvers are another matter entirely. Fire bounces around in all directions. I think we all agree that a loose or missing cap can be a danger and "Stars & Bars" admitted that he pinched oversize caps to keep them on, not a good idea.
Another consideration not mentioned is cylinder end shake, the slack which allows the cylinder to move fore and aft. The hammer blow and cap fire drive the cylinder as far forward as it can go, then when the ball exits the chamber, full chamber pressure drives the cylinder back. If a cap gets a bit cocked, partially off the nipple, it will be crushed when the cylinder slams rearward.
At the front there is much more of a blast, that is what blows most of the lube away. Still, only a little ring of lube is needed to serve it's entended purpose both to seal the chamber and lube the bore. I'd never fire an unlubricated bullet even in a smokeless cartridge gun.
If you'll remove the nipples and seat balls into the chambers and push them back out with a rod through the nipple holes, You'll find that "tight fitting ball" has only a very narrow ring of contact with the chamber walls. It is not at all hard to believe that a defective ball carelessly seated could leave a gap, or perhaps a grain of powder could be crushed between the ball and chamber walls to serve as a fuze.
Chamber mouths should be slightly beveled to avoid shearing a ring of lead. Shearing produces a poor seal. With a properly beveled chamber mouth the lead is swaged to fit and is much tighter than a sheared fit. One should still use lube over or a wad under and there are much better lubes than Crisco which melts and blows away when even a little warm. Notice how many of the chainfires mentioned also mention Crisco or no lube at all.
I bought a Navy Arms "Yank" .36 back in 1961 and have owned and fired many revolvers since without ever a multiple discharge. I have always been cautious to do it right and maybe I've been lucky as well. :results:
I saw an episode on the History Channel where a pepperbox chainfired all barrels, not simultaneously but sort of full auto. I feel sure the gun had been modified, rigged to do that. I can see no way a pepperbox could crossfire at the front as the powder is so far from the muzzles and again there is nothing to bounce the fire back. I also doubt it could happen at the rear as the nipples stand out widely seperated and again nothing to direct the fire from one to another. I think the "gun guy" just knew how to put on a safe but spectacular show.
Revolvers are another matter entirely. Fire bounces around in all directions. I think we all agree that a loose or missing cap can be a danger and "Stars & Bars" admitted that he pinched oversize caps to keep them on, not a good idea.
Another consideration not mentioned is cylinder end shake, the slack which allows the cylinder to move fore and aft. The hammer blow and cap fire drive the cylinder as far forward as it can go, then when the ball exits the chamber, full chamber pressure drives the cylinder back. If a cap gets a bit cocked, partially off the nipple, it will be crushed when the cylinder slams rearward.
At the front there is much more of a blast, that is what blows most of the lube away. Still, only a little ring of lube is needed to serve it's entended purpose both to seal the chamber and lube the bore. I'd never fire an unlubricated bullet even in a smokeless cartridge gun.
If you'll remove the nipples and seat balls into the chambers and push them back out with a rod through the nipple holes, You'll find that "tight fitting ball" has only a very narrow ring of contact with the chamber walls. It is not at all hard to believe that a defective ball carelessly seated could leave a gap, or perhaps a grain of powder could be crushed between the ball and chamber walls to serve as a fuze.
Chamber mouths should be slightly beveled to avoid shearing a ring of lead. Shearing produces a poor seal. With a properly beveled chamber mouth the lead is swaged to fit and is much tighter than a sheared fit. One should still use lube over or a wad under and there are much better lubes than Crisco which melts and blows away when even a little warm. Notice how many of the chainfires mentioned also mention Crisco or no lube at all.
I bought a Navy Arms "Yank" .36 back in 1961 and have owned and fired many revolvers since without ever a multiple discharge. I have always been cautious to do it right and maybe I've been lucky as well. :results:
Russ T Frizzen
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When you are careful and do it right, you make your own luck.
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I have used Crisco for years (30) with both my Old Army's. Maybe I have just been lucky.
Is it possible that, aside from a spark, that the concussion from an exploding round could trigger the detonation of an adjacent cap? I've shot cap and ball revolvers since 1968 and, knock on wood, have not had a chain fire. I grease over the balls and use tight fitting caps. Shoot only Remingtons, and spent almost no time with Colts.
mewing6003
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One thought just occured to me. I have been reenacting ACW for years now and I have never seen a chain fire at an event and neither has anyone I have talked about it with. Now we dont use live rounds, but everything else is done the same. All of our cav units and all officers carry (and shoot) revolvers. We literally shoot hundreds of shots each day and probably well over 1,000 shots per weekend with revolvers alone. Over the course of a season I would estimate 6,000-7,000 revolver shots, but not one time have I seen a misfire!
The only thing we do different is no ball. My thought was maybe the recoil/pressure is in fact backing the caps off a bit and letting flame in that way. Doing the math bit, I would say in the course of three years just our small New England reenactment group have fired over nearly 20,000 shots from just revolvers alone, all without one single chain fire! While I cant speak for the rest of ACW reenactors in the country, we are a tight community and if someone was getting chain fires from revolvers, the word would be quickly out. Add the rest of those guys in the mix and the number of shots per year goes through the roof.
One other thing, we do use lube in front of our cylinders to keep the powder in. That pretty much burns off after the first or second shot though. So I am doubting if chain fires occur from the front end. I mean after all, we dont even seat a ball!
:m2c:
The only thing we do different is no ball. My thought was maybe the recoil/pressure is in fact backing the caps off a bit and letting flame in that way. Doing the math bit, I would say in the course of three years just our small New England reenactment group have fired over nearly 20,000 shots from just revolvers alone, all without one single chain fire! While I cant speak for the rest of ACW reenactors in the country, we are a tight community and if someone was getting chain fires from revolvers, the word would be quickly out. Add the rest of those guys in the mix and the number of shots per year goes through the roof.
One other thing, we do use lube in front of our cylinders to keep the powder in. That pretty much burns off after the first or second shot though. So I am doubting if chain fires occur from the front end. I mean after all, we dont even seat a ball!
:m2c:
unspellable
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I recently acquired a Rogers & Spencer replica. Took it out for the first time this week end. Of course I had to find out what it liked in the way of caps, balls, etc. The first cap I tried was a CVA. I had two or three caps fall off loaded chambers in the first two cylinder loads. Also had caps stuck firmly in place after firing and a dog to get off. I switched to remington caps and the revolver seemed much happier with them.
Point is, I had caps fall off loaded cylinders leaving an open nipple.
On the other hand, when I did have a chainfire years ago it was on the fist shot of the cylinder so all the caps would have been in place. I got three for one. Would the caps come off that quickly when the revolver was fired?
Point is, I had caps fall off loaded cylinders leaving an open nipple.
On the other hand, when I did have a chainfire years ago it was on the fist shot of the cylinder so all the caps would have been in place. I got three for one. Would the caps come off that quickly when the revolver was fired?
