First Chainfire

[Claude Mathis]

In all the years I've been shooting cap and ball pistols, I've had one chain fire (two chambers fired). It was the one time I didn't grease the ends of the chambers.

I doubt very much it was cap related.

 

[Nightwind]

Claude, I'm not trying to be a smart butt here, but are you sure you put the balls in too? I saw that happen one time when a guy was using lubed wads. he was talking to others and forgot to put in the balls. Fortunately he was in no danger other than the flash, but the pistol didn't sound the same either.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Claude, I'm not trying to be a smart butt here, but are you sure you put the balls in too?

Yes, had I not loaded the balls, the powder would have fallen out as I never used wads. As it was, the recoil from two cylinders was very noticeable. It was the recoil that alerted me to something unusual. I looked at the pistol and had two empty chambers and chunks of lead on the frame.

 

[Gary]

Claude, I'm not trying to be a smart butt here, but are you sure you put the balls in too?

Yes, had I not loaded the balls, the powder would have fallen out as I never used wads. As it was, the recoil from two cylinders was very noticeable. It was the recoil that alerted me to something unusual. I looked at the pistol and had two empty chambers and chunks of lead on the frame.

Well, no grease, no sized ball, no wads. A chainfire under these circumstances is not only possible but expected. It would be more surprising if it didn't chainfire. Wow, short of not having ammunition (lead balls), I think we now have a machine-gun since there's only one squeeze of the trigger for multiple discharges! Class III firearms. :blah: Or has it gone to "destructive device" since it's not a gonne but a flamethrower? :crackup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Claude, I'm not trying to be a smart butt here, but are you sure you put the balls in too?

Yes, had I not loaded the balls, the powder would have fallen out as I never used wads. As it was, the recoil from two cylinders was very noticeable. It was the recoil that alerted me to something unusual. I looked at the pistol and had two empty chambers and chunks of lead on the frame.

Well, no grease, no sized ball, no wads. A chainfire under these circumstances is not only possible but expected.

The balls certainly seemed tight enough. I guess they weren't. :haha:

I've always greased after that and never had another.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

Claude, I'm not trying to be a smart butt here, but are you sure you put the balls in too? I saw that happen one time when a guy was using lubed wads. he was talking to others and forgot to put in the balls. Fortunately he was in no danger other than the flash, but the pistol didn't sound the same either.

Likewise Nightwind, I'm not trying to be some kind of "smart-aleck" towards you with my comments below.

Please refer back several posts to the re-enactor/fellow that tells of his group shooting thousands of "blanks" (which have no balls), and that no one has had a chain fire occur in all that time and all those shots.

You still bring up a very good point...

You should NOT let anyone DISTRACT you during the cap-n-ball loading process. You've already increased your chances of "mucking up something" by 5 or 6 times, more than with loading a single shot pistol or rifle... so it's wise to have NO DISTRACTIONS of any kind. It's just common sense.

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[Nightwind]

No offense taken guys, this is being done a lot more civilized than jury duty!

The guy that had the chainfire without the balls in the cylinder was also loading about 40 grains of 3f in a Colt bought from Cabela's. So maybe the first shot or two loosened the wad in the other chambers and exposed the powder? . He also ruined that Colt by shooting such large loads. I Can't remember what, but something pulled loose and it wouldn't fire after that.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

That is a VERY interesting bit of info about the heavy charges, and that it was a Colt style gun (open top frame)

It is confirming my suspicions that heavy powder charges and the accompanying recoil are looking at least to be a contributing factor in causing a chain fire.

It also bears witness that the Colt style guns tend to wear out faster from using the heavier loads.

The only cap-n-ball guns that I've "worn out" happened to be a couple of Colt style open framed guns. One was an 1860 steel framed gun which I used to shoot almost exclusively with 28gr of Goex FFFG and 230gr Speer swaged lead bullets (which were intended to be used in the .45 ACP or .45 Long Colt). The other was a brass framed .36 Sheriff's model that I shot with as much powder as I could (probably about 24gr of Goex FFFg with round ball.

Both guns developed a lot of end play in the cylinder and I could not tighten up the gap with the wedge any longer. Eventually the timing started to go out. That's when I traded them off (I did inform the people who got them that there were serious problems, but they wanted the guns for decoration use only though, so no problem there).

 

[mewing6003]

I have some more fuel to add to the fire. At a recent reenactment I loaned my spare revolver to one of our people. I forgot to tell him that it takes #10 caps. #11's just fall off. Anyway, he loaded it up, put #11's on it and when he shot, he got off 2 shots, the caps had fallen off the rest of of the nipples. After the battle he gave me the revolver and I looked at it and noted the following two things.
#1 95%+ of the lube was burned off from all 4 of the unfired cylinders. Just a tiny gooey bit left in each chamber.
#2 both caps were largely intact on the 2 cylinders that fired, split open on one, but still there.

I cant beleive that with these conditions he did not get a chain fire on at least the second shot. Four open nipples and 4 nearly completely open chamber mouths. ::

While this doesnt solve any of the questions brought up here, I am beginning to think more and more there might be something to the recoil/pressure thing. Possibly pushing the caps back from the charge and letting flame get out that way? I now have a starting point with what the caps look like when shooting blanks.

Anyway, I am going to the range this weekend if I can get the time and see what the spent caps look like on that revolver. There may be a difference when firing blanks vs. firing live rounds.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Blank loads would produce very little recoil and very little chamber pressure. That means no backblast through the nipples and less blast across the front of the cylinder.
Whether crossfiring occurs at front or back, blanks would seem less likely to produce that effect.
I don't think we can ever resolve at which end of the cylinder it happens but it can happen at either end if conditions are right, or I should say if conditions are wrong. :results:

 

[crockett]

I am going to do some rough totals:
Unspellable-1st shot, 3 chambers(2 to rt), reg loads
K9-75-1st shot,3 chambers
Cayugad-3chambers? 1st shot?
Coyote Joe-1st shot, all six
Claude-1st shot, first time no grease
Hank-1st shot?? .440 balls(first time tried)
WV Hillbilly 1st shot??, chamber to lft, lube over ball, no wad, same loads as usual.
Rat-used 777, no wad or grease. 4 chambers?
Merdean-1st shot, new caps, what chamber(s)?
WRussell-No lube(first time) 3 of 5 chambers, 1st shot???
Johnny Reb-New sized caps, 2 chambers(which?) 1st shot??
Nightwind- slow heat over caps appears to ignite them.
Recoil caused? Seems grove in frame would prevent this??

Question: Who has experienced a chain firing part way though firing the revolver. Something other than the first shot?

My conclusions: could be several causes. A lack of lube/wad is certainly possible from evidence, ill fitting caps seem a second source and maybe the more common because ill fitting caps would be knocked off on a first shot whereas a defective ball permitting ignition from the end of the chamber could occur part way through firing the gun.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

My chain fire did occur on the first shot.

From the data thus far, it looks like many chain fires occurred on thet first shot fired... but the actual cause is still a mystery. I do think it is recoil that is causing the caps to come loose, AND/OR the ball to slide forward as the chamber recoils backwards.

 

[crockett]

Not to put the work on someone else's shoulders but... What is needed is a test gun. If someone has an old colt frame maybe a new cylinder post could be installed, the post could be threaded on the end so a nut could hold the cylinder in place without a barrel. Or perhaps some sort of sleave with a slot to replace the barrel- same idea. The wood grips could be removed and the gun put in a random rest contraption that permits recoil, the testing could then be done from a safe position.
A variety of tests could be run. From my last post I held a glob of crisco on the end of a butter knife and put a match to it. It melts pretty fast. Maybe the grease of yesteryear was different or a better grease could be used.
One test could be to plug all but one nipple and test for a chain firing from the end of the chambers. An undersized ball could be placed next to the chamber to be fired by the hammer. The other chambers would receive regular balls. If only the chamber with the undersized ball fires- fine; but, if other chambers fired-that would be interesting.
The same test could be tried with a ball having a fissure- mimicing a bur on the chamber mouth that did such to the ball.
Both grease and wads could be tried.
The second series of tests could try for defective caps. The chamber could receive a small powder charge followed by a lubed wad, paper disc, and another wad-pretty much sealing the chamber end.
From the evidence to date, it is really odd that all these chain firings seem to occur on the first shot. A first shot would knock off loose caps and supports the theory that most chain firings are cap related. If the problem was usually from the chamber end and the chamber was greased. it would take one shot to melt off the grease and then the chain fire would(IT SEEMS) occur on a subsequent shot.

 

[crockett]

Heh WV-Hillbilly- put me down for an idiot. I think I didn't understand what you meant by a loose ball sliding from recoil, so let me re-state. I think what you are saying is that the ball in a chamber is undersized. On the FIRST SHOT, the recoil knocks the ball(or balls) forward OUT OF THE CHAMBER(S) and the exposed powder goes off. Is that correct?? If so, it could explain why a lot of chain firings don't seem to damage the gun. Theoretically, there should be lead all over the ajoining part of the barrel. Let's therefore go back a step. For all those that had a chain firing, what was the damage to the barrel area and were there bits of lead, lead fouling, etc around the ajoining areas of the gun? No lead would suggest the ball(s) bounced harmlessly out of the chamber(s). When we speak of a chain firing from the chamber end I was assuming a flame squeeked past a ball and ignited the powder charge.

 

[LRB]

In my time of shooting revolvers, I have had two chain fires. Both because i forgot to lube. Both times the chambers on either side of the intended fired. I never had another after I started using a lubed wad over the powder. Been a while, but I used to shoot revolver quite a bit.

 

[WRussell]

Crockett -

My chain fire was first shot.
No grease, undersize balls (buckshot - not even balls).
Yes, balls in the other 2 chambers were fired - lots of recoil, lead on the frame.

 

[Nightwind]

Geez guys, I never gave it much thought about the undersized balls! Sounds like a lot of shooters are doing that? :shocking: :shocking:

Not having a colt type revolver, I can't add to the "research" there. So I got out several of my Pietta '58's, a Uberti Rogers and Spencer and the wife's Uberti target carbine. I miked all of the chambers at the mouth and deeper down where the ball would rest after pressing in. Each of the chambers had a reduction of bore diameter by five thousandths the deeper you go down, except for my Pietta Deluxe target pistol, which had a reduction of 9 thousandths.

I checked that information against the ball sizes that I use in each different pistol and found out that the ball sizes were each four thousandths bigger than the diameter of the mouth of each chamber. Which would result in a ring shaving of lead every time a ball is seated in a chamber.

Let's also add, that after the ball has shaved approximately 4 thousandths off it's diameter, it is also being "squeeeezed" another five thousandths smaller as it goes down the chamber somewhat!!! That's why we have a loading lever on those revolvers!!!

Now, that being said; either folks are using balls that look like wrinkled prunes or they're pushing the undersized balls down the chambers with their fingers or popsicle sticks?!! :nono: :nono:

I pray no one takes offense by what I've just said, but right now my eyes are about as big as a cat's in the middle of an eight lane highway in Chicago!!!

 

[Old Charlie]

My ROA had one chamber that was poorly machined. It had a lip just inside the chamber.whitch was shaving off lead and leaving the ball loose in the chamber. When you fired the gun that ball would slide forward and jam the action. I can see where that loose ball might cause a chain fire of that one chamber.
Old Charlie

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

Heh WV-Hillbilly- put me down for an idiot. I think I didn't understand what you meant by a loose ball sliding from recoil, so let me re-state. I think what you are saying is that the ball in a chamber is undersized. On the FIRST SHOT, the recoil knocks the ball(or balls) forward OUT OF THE CHAMBER(S) and the exposed powder goes off. Is that correct?? If so, it could explain why a lot of chain firings don't seem to damage the gun. Theoretically, there should be lead all over the ajoining part of the barrel. Let's therefore go back a step. For all those that had a chain firing, what was the damage to the barrel area and were there bits of lead, lead fouling, etc around the ajoining areas of the gun? No lead would suggest the ball(s) bounced harmlessly out of the chamber(s). When we speak of a chain firing from the chamber end I was assuming a flame squeeked past a ball and ignited the powder charge.

Nah, I'd NEVER do that to a fellow "cap-n-baller"... we're just "on the same page" now.

But I think you are getting the gist of what I am trying to say. My chain fire event did little more than leave some splotches of lead splatter on the left side of the barrel assembly, on the wedge, and the wedge retaining screw. The actual event felt like someone slapped my hand--like a stinging effect, but the recoil wasn't as heavy as if firing two shots together.

I also remember seeing a puff of dust and the weeds moving just off to the left of my aiming point. The impact was NOT like the impact of a normal shot. More like the impact of a hard thrown rock. I assumed that it was from the distorted ball--from the additional chamber that fired.

I know lots of people who use .451 diamter balls because "they load easier"... they don't care about shaving a ring of lead, they don't want the extra effort in using the loading lever, they just want the ball to easily go into the chamber.

I have personally had some guns that .451 was the proper size to use, and I had one where .451 diameter was TOO LARGE--I had to use .445 diamter ball in that one!

The problem is similar to why we need a heavy crimp on .44 magnum (.454 Casull, etc) ammo. If the bullet is "loosely" crimped, it can slide forward under heavy recoil, and prevent the cylinder from turning (if we're lucky); or the powder flare could ignite the additional cartridges where the bullets slid forward out of the cases.

Well, in cap-n-ball guns, we have no brass cartridge cases. The chamber walls are our "cases".

So in effect, using a tight fitting ball is the equivalent of providing that "heavy crimp" (or "bullet pull" as it's referred to). Also most shooters tend to use around 30gr of FFFg charges which are full power, heavy loads. To that heavy loading you add loose fitting balls, and you've got enough recoil to want the ball to remain in place and the gun will recoil backwards away from the balls.

We just need to look at Isaac Newton's 1st and 3rd Laws of Motion for the explanation of what happens.

As you said, in the case of multiple discharge chain fires, you'd think that the gun would become a small grenade. The shooter "should" lose fingers, maybe their hand, part of their forearm, their eyesight, OR WORSE!

But at least from the data here--that doesn't happen.

It also makes complete sense (at least to me) that the chain fire should occur on the first shot, because the "loose fitting" balls are going to slide forward the first chance they get during recoil.

IF it were that the balls were of the proper diamter and tightly fitting, AND that the problem happened at the rear due to "loose fitting" percussion caps, then the extra chamber(s) that fired should cause considerable damage to the gun and severe injury to the shooter's hand. Again, so far, I've not heard of any critical injuries or completely destroyed revolvers.

Could it also be that the use of a heavy grease (i.e. filling all the space over the ball with it) makes a temporary "hydraulic barrier", or dams it up somehow, which helps to prevent a loose fitting ball from sliding forward during recoil? I am just theorizing some more...

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Did anyone else notice?

Isn't it strange that in the data listed, that chain fires do NOT seem to be occurring on .36 caliber guns--which makes the "loose fitting ball theory" seem more probable. It is only the .44/.45 caliber guns that have several different diameters of ball that could be used. The .36 caliber guns generally ONLY use .375 diameter balls. (NOTE: there are some .380 diameter balls available, but they are the exception AND they are larger, not smaller than the .375's)

Also the majority of shooters that are "starting out" (OR only have one revolver), buy a .44 caliber cap-n-ball revolver, NOT the .36 caliber. AND,it is ONLY the .44 caliber revolvers that have several diameters of balls available that could fit in their chambers.

IF the chain fire problem was from the "loose fitting cap theory", then it shouldn't matter what caliber the gun is chambered for... should it? Chain fires should be occurring in ALL the calibers--IF loose caps are the culprit.
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I think a valid test setup would have to be a complete gun, and not just a loaded cylinder on a frame.

BTW, I AM looking to find an old open top frame Colt style Army (or Navy) revolver--BUT it has to be a .44 caliber!!! If anyone has one to donate OR sell cheaply, send me a PM. Don't care if the bore is rusted up, or what it looks like. Just needs to be reasonably tight and still well timed. It has to function properly, not be pretty. The gun may well get destroyed during the test, so if you donate it--don't expect it to come back to you intact.

Please think about what I've said here and if any of it makes sense to anyone who reads it, please comment. And if it makes NO sense, please comment also. Somewhere in all of this the answer is...

Shoot Safely!
WV_Hillbilly

 

[brubincam]

i used to have a 36.always greased balls,it would chain fire sometimes