first post, need some help with Pedersoli identification

[logandiana]

When I was a kid I had a small black powder cannon that I used to load with 25 caliber slingshot balls. That was the only experience with black powder anything that I ever had.
Last week I bought my first black powder rifle off of gunbroker. It's a Pedersoli 50 caliber. And that's about all I am certain of. It looks almost identical to the Frontier rifle on Pedersolis website. The have tracked down the markings on the barrel to be Pedersoli and Italian makers marks and I believe the BB in a box translates to being manufactured in 1992. The serial number is 60591. Can anyone confirm this? How long has Pedersoli been making the Frontier model and have they always called this the Frontier? Have there been design changes between when then and now? For instance, the twist rate on new rifles is 1:48, but was that the same twist rate used back when this rifle was made? Also the only real visual difference I can tell is that the newer Frontier model has a ramrod that is flush with the front of the rifle while mine sticks out an inch or so. I don't know if that's just the way they were made back then or perhaps my ramrod is not original. I'll try to post some photos as soon as I can get photobucket to cooperate.
Glad to be a part of the forum and look forward to hearing from y'all.

 

[Rick Boylan]

I'll post this in reply before others do. Post some pictures of the rifle. That way people will be better able to help identify it. hotoSmile:

 

..the only real visual difference I can tell is that the newer Frontier model has a ramrod that is flush with the front of the rifle while mine sticks out an inch or so.

So, you're saying it's a Frontier with a longer ramrod?

hotoSmile:

 

[Billnpatti]

I am not an expert on this subject and like others have already said, we really need a photo to be of much help to you. But, from your description, I would say that you most likely have a Frontier that has a ramrod that has been replaced. That would not be unusual because these rifles come with a wooden ramrod and most of them are not good rods. They end up getting broken and then the owner has to replace it. If your present rod is wood and you do not know for certain that it is a rod made of straight grain hickory, be careful.....be VERY careful because the previous owner could have just gone to the local hardware store and purchased a dowel rod to use as a ramrod. The danger with that is almost all dowel rods have grain run out. If you use this kind of rod and ever need to put a good bit of pressure on it to seat a ball, etc. it is quite likely that the dowel rod will break in such a way that it will leave a sharp point that can easily run through your hand or arm. Many people have had that happen. Wood ramrods must be made of straight grain wood and I think straight grain hickory is the best ramrod wood.

 

[logandiana]

Here's a photo of the muzzle.
This is with the ramrod pushed all the way in as far as it'll go. This photo is one that I pulled from the auction before I bought it.


Here's a pic of the buttstock. The previous owner added some of these brass tack. I don't think it came that way from the factory. Not sure if I like em or not.




other pics


Serial

 

[daniel collums]

your ramrod has a cleaning jag on it.

 

[bpd303]

Looks like the Kentucky, however I don't see the DP in an oval or David Petersoli in the pictures of the barrel. What is the length of the barrel? The ramrod looks to be a replacement. Does the jag unscrew?

 

[Zonie]

Here's a link to the Pedersoli site's Frontier rifle for anyone interested.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_36/rifles-frontier.html

logandiana: Welcome to the Forum.

Yes, the BB indicates the barrel was proof tested in 1992.

Your rifle will want to shoot .490 or .495 diameter balls patched with a lubricated cloth patch.

Either real or synthetic black powders will work in it but if you shoot the synthetic powders you will get better results (faster ignition) with the "magnum" caps or with Dynamite Nobel caps.
You will need #11 size caps.

Your powder loads can be either 2Fg or 3Fg.

My .50's like powder loads of about 65 or 70 grains but each rifle is different so you will need to do some shooting with different powder loads to find out which one(s) work best in your gun.

Have fun.

 

[Alden]

42" barrel Pennsylvania, 39" Frontier, 36" Kentucky...

Can't see the profile or it'd be fairly obvious.

 

[bpd303]

I have seen 1 Pedersoli Kentucky without the patch box. They had a 35 1/2 inch barrel the Frontier had a 39 inch barrel and the Pennsylvania had a 41 5/8 barrel.

 

[bpd303]

Would like to see a clearer picture of the emblem before the black powder only. Is it an anvil with DAP inside? If so it's an early gun imported by Dixie Gun Works.

 

[logandiana]

Here are some more photos.
First symbol from left to right appears to be a star in a circle with PN underneath.

Followed by the BB in a square
Followed by a smaller star in a circle above a shield or coat of arms or something. It looks like an anvil with crossed rifles or swords or something. Very small

Followed by the serial number.
Followed by Pedersoli over what looks like an anvil or something with DAV in the center.

Followed by Black Powder only over Made in Italy. Followed by CAL.50

Those are all the marks I can see on the top of the barrel.
The barrel is 39 inches long.
I hadn't thought about trying to unscrew anything on the rod, but sure enough.

Here's a close up of the rod with the end screwed on all the way into the barrel.

Should there be more or less sticking out of the barrel at this point?

 

[logandiana]

Here's a photo of the full length although still at an angle.
The barrel is 39 inches.
There is no patch box and there are double triggers.


I was a little annoyed because it was slightly damaged in shipping. In the photo above you can see where the toe of the buttstock broke off. Not a huge issue, I've already repaired it, but I think it was originally split when the previous owner added the tacks. The shipping just finished the job. The rifle needs a bit of cleaning up, and I'll probably refinish the stock since I'd rather have a nice oil rubbed finish over the varnish that's on there. I don't think its a bad start for only $289, considering what they are sellling for new.

 

[bpd303]

With a 39 inch barrel it would be the Frontier although I don't recall Dixie calling it that. The anvil with DAP is rarely seen and for $289 I would say ya done good. The ramrod looks right if there is no load in the barrel.

The way to tell if it's loaded is mark the rod at the muzzle (I just hold it with my fingers) then lay it alongside the barrel and the end should go to the nipple if the gun is unloaded. Another way to tell is to blow through the nipple and if air passes it's empty.

 

[Zonie]

With the damage to the stock's toe, you might want to consider adding a toe plate in that area.

Not only will it add a bit of customizing to your gun but it will reinforce the area and prevent it from breaking again.

Although the toe plate in this picture is a bit fancy and it is inlayed so it is flush with the adjacent wood, yours could have just a square end on it and be sitting on top of the wood.



If you have a good hardware store or hobby shop in your neck of the woods, a couple of bucks can buy the brass or steel flat stock and a couple of flat head screws.
With a little time spent installing the toe plate the whole area will be stronger.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

That's a "Frontier" for sure. The muzzle photo gave it away.

It looks like the front of the ramrod is missing, and they inverted the rear portion, and added the jag, as that hardware normally goes on the back end of a ramrod...I think the ramrod is actually a replacement.

The loss of the toe is a common problem.

For $289 as long as the bore is good, you got a very good rifle.

They are patent breech contraptions, so there is a smaller chamber recessed into the breech plug face, and this sometimes gets very cruddy, so you may want to get a pistol sized .22 cleaning brush to occasionally scrub that chamber of carbon.

LD

 

[Alden]

All correct and good advice.

 

[logandiana]

The marking is actually DAV not DAP inside the little anvil. Does that make a difference as to where and when it came from? Or its value?

I removed the barrel and found 84 stamped at the very end of the barrel next to the breech plug along with 84 again on the breech plug. Does this mean anything?

Is there anywhere that I can buy an exact replacement ramrod for this rifle as a part number? I tried contacting Pedersoli directly to ask about all the questions above in this post, but didn't receive any response. Kinda figured that would be the case though.

Earlier in the post I mentioned twist rate. The new versions of the frontier have 1:48. Zonie above said that the rifle will do best with round balls. Does this mean that the older rifles like I have were manufactured with a slower rate like 1:60 or something? Or have they always been 1:48? Is there a way to look this up or to figure it out with some fancy measuring or something?

I really like the idea of the toe plate. I think when i refinish the stock I may add one of these!

 

[bpd303]

I have never seen one with DAV but I doubt it would affect the value. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/236956/

I think the 84 is just manufacturing marks matching the barrel to the breech.

If you want an original ramrod you can try here. http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=56&cat=Pedersoli+Frontier+Rifle http://flintlocksetc.com/index.htm
They may also have more info on the DAV maker mark.

For measuring the twist rate it's simple. Put a snug cleaning patch on the jag and run it in the barrel to the breech. Put a piece of tape on the rod at the muzzle and make a mark lining up with the front sight. Then draw the rod out allowing it to rotate with the rifling for a half turn. Measure the distance from the tape mark to the muzzle and multiply by 2. So if the distance is say 24 inches the twist rate is 1:48 30 inches would be 1:60. Make sure you have a little lubrication on the patch, dry patches have a tendency to stick in the barrel.

 

[Billnpatti]

Ohio Ramrod [email protected] makes ramrods and can probably make one for your rifle. The one that you have is the correct length and if you simply want it to look a bit better, you can just sand it a bit and coat it with something like Tru Oil. It will clean it up nicely. I seriously doubt that you will ever find a Pedersoli made rod anywhere but, after all, it is just a rod. Have Ohio Ramrod make one for you out of straight grain hickory and then take the metal fittings off the rod that you have and put them on the new rod. You can stain it to make it look older or to exactly match your rifle if you want. So long as it is the right size, no one will ever know that it is a replacement. I also like to have a metal range rod with a muzzle protector for my rifles. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/566/1/RAMROD-C-44-10 When I am shooting, I use my range rod for loading and cleaning. My wooden ramrods are just there for show.