First shot always a flyer problem...

[Casem4]

So first off it finally happened. Took 5 years but finally downed a deer with the flintlock. Thanks for the advice that got me there. But now I have another issue I'm trying to resolve. I've made lots of adjustments so where I'm at now is 80grains of 2f with Lee real bullet 320 grain with a beeswax/crisco lube.

The problem is the first shot always seems to be low and who knows where it goes half the time. Soon as its dirty couple swabs in between shots and a pie plate at 50 yards looks like swiss cheese. But my first shot is typically the first shot on a deer with a clean rifle. So if anybody has ideas I would greatly appreciate the advice.

 

[Ames]

Well, after pushing the bullet down the clean barrel, you could try to dirty it up by swabbing the barrel with more lube on top of the load.
Then see what it does to the first shot.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Way too many variables, so far to work with...,
What type of rifle?
Have you tried loading a wad between the bullet and the powder?
What other bullets have you tried?
Single plain trigger or set trigger(s)?
Shooting from a bench and sandbags or some other position at the range?
Have you chronographed that first shot at the range?

Any one of these could explain why a first shot is tossed low, and any combination if more than one of these is slight, could also.

LD

 

[curator]

Casem4:
Most rifles shoot the first shoot poorly from a bore has been cleaned and oiled. Dr5X recommends one shoot off a squib (powder but no projectile) first before loading a shot that needs to count. I have found that de-greasing the bore with a few patches wet with denatured alcohol, then firing a squib load followed up with a normal damp patch wipe, eliminated the "first shot flier." Serious accuracy depends on uniform barrel condition.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I agree with LD, what kind of rifle and what rate of twist in the barrel.

I have a .54 rice barrel that threw fliers with amazing regularity, it cut patches as well. One day on impulse I decided to fix the barrel or ruin it, I got out the green scotch bright pad, some soft scrub bathroom cleaner and went to work on the barrel. After a few strokes I could see metal on the pad and thought "you've done it now, dummy". I finished up with about 50 strokes with JB bore paste. I looked in the bore with a bore camera and found the sharp edge lands were now slightly rounded, oops.

I took the gun out back to shoot it expecting disaster. I had shot almost every combination in this gun over the years with the same results so I decided to try my hunting load of 90 gr of 2F, a .530 ball and a .018 ticking. At 50 yards the balls stacked on top of each other, what's going on? On my next load I glanced at my powder measure and found it was actually set on 80 gr not 90, surely I had shot 80 gr before but I didn't remember.

I tried the gun at 100 yards, I got less than a 2" group, no fliers and no patch cutting. I guess 80 gr was the sweet spot after my barrel scrubbing session.

I don't recommend anything near as radical as my barrel scrubbing because you are just as likely to ruin a barrel as make it better.

My point is, there is an answer to your problem, a pie plate at 50 yards isn't good enough, it might take a barrel rebore to fix it but there is a solution.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I think curator and Loyalist Dave are getting on the correct path with a side note to Dutch Schoultz (Dr5x). What is the ratio of bee's wax to Crisco? While it will help if we know the make, twist rate and caliber of your rifle, its pretty likely a 50 caliber based on the REAL bullet you are shooting. How hard is the REAL bullet to load for the first shot? Do the driving bands securely engrave on loading? Is the REAL bullet cast from pure soft lead? How new is the gun? There could be some new gun issues to sort out here as well. Also accuracy and consistency improve after the first shot.

Tell us how you prepare for that first shot. I assume that you have a thoroughly clean and lubricated with rust inhibiting lubricant from the last shooting session. Even if you used a filming rust inhibitor such as Barricade, you have to rid the rifle of excess oils. Use a wet 91% rubbing alcohol soaked patch to clean the oils and residual wax from the bore. If you have a rifle with a patent breech, then use the small brush and patch to clean that as well. Let the alcohol evaporate far a minute or two. I don't recommend a fouling shot for hunting as the rifle could remain loaded for several days.

What we should be trying to do for that first shot is to give that bullet the kind of resistance that you get from shots from a fired bore. Even if the bore is wiped, there is still a bit of fouling there to grip the bullet. Here is where that over powder card comes into play. It will provide a bit more resistance to the expanding charge than the bullet alone. True for patched round balls and lubricated conicals as well. That clean bore is slicker than the subsequent shots, so some more initial resistance is needed. Dutch recommends more resistance through slightly stickier, tightly loaded bullets over very slick lubes. Maybe a higher ratio of bee's wax to Crisco.

Hope you can get your first shot under control.

Since you are hunting deer and the range is likely less than 100 yards, I would think a patched round ball is adequate for hunting and maybe more accurate.

 

[Carbon 6]

Well, after pushing the bullet down the clean barrel, you could try to dirty it up by swabbing the barrel with more lube on top of the load.
Then see what it does to the first shot.

Or try a lubed base wad for the first shot, and see what that does.
Or you could swab the barrel after each shot so every shot is the same.

 

[Brokennock]

Is your barrel meant for conical bullets? Maybe the grooves are too deep and/or the rate of twist too slow?
The fouling may be helping with the too deep a groove issue.
It would seem the correct load combo in a rifled barrel should be shooting better than minute of pie plate at 50 yards.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I have found that a fouling shot first, of >= half the charge I’ll be using, under a wadded-up-cleaning patch of ‘same’ lube I’m using, will allow the 1st shot w/ roundball to be at the point of aim.

Hanshi (who posts on here) and I discussed this in depth last Fall and he has a method to avoid the dreaded ‘1st clean shot fliers’, but nothing so far has worked for me.

 

[Rat]

I don't believe hunting with a fouled barrel is a good idea, especially in wet conditions or even high humidity.

Many barrels shoot to a different point of aim, when clean or fouled. Even modern rifles do it. Some rifles don't, but I think they are a small minority.

I always sight my hunting rifles (which they all are) with a clean barrel. I clean my barrel in between shots. Not just wipe. It's a long process, but worth it. (and you don't have to clean the rest of the gun, just the barrel) That produces a group, from a clean barrel, and regulates the sights to a clean barrel. In the long run, I think it's less trouble than trying endless load combinations, or again, being out all day with a dirty, rust attracting barrel.

That way, instead of the first shot going out of the group, your second and third shots will be out of the group. But they shouldn't be out by much, and 99% of the time, a follow up shot will be taken at close range, (99% of the time you won't need one) where even a flyer will only be off a few inches. Instead of your first shot being low, if you clean between shots when sighting in, it will be on, and your follow up shots will be a bit high.

A "bit high" won't make any difference on the side of a deer or Elk at close range.

Cleaning my barrel(s) between shots, only takes about a half dozen patches at most. It (the patch) does not have to be squeeky clean, but the patches should no longer be black. I tend to keep cleaning until they come out "pretty clean". One shot does not foul a barrel badly. Be sure to dry the barrel well, before loading, as it would be when loading up for a hunt. I just run a couple of "drying patches", and use them for cleaning patches when I start over again.

 

[biliff]

a pie plate at 50 yards looks like swiss cheese

Are you saying your 50 yd groups are the size of a pie plate? At 50 yds you should be getting 2" or better groups, not 8". There's something wrong besides just an inconsistent first shot.

 

[Carbon 6]

Your problem may also be the projectile itself.
Try a different projectile,
Try a patched ball.

 

[Rat]

Bili is right...clarification please. What is the actual group size. If the group is pie-plate size, I'm not sure how one could determine if the first shot is low...so there's a communication breakdown here. More information please.

Having said/asked that...there's no doubt that a pie plate size group will kill a deer at 50 yards, every time, and it seems as though it did.

Does the first shot go off the pie plate?

 

[Rat]

But again, no amount of load variation, different projectile, etc., is probably going to change the dispersion between the first shot from a clean barrel, and following shots from a fouled barrel. ?

 

[Casem4]

I'm sorry the thread is being watched but was never notified. So I'll try and make this a good answer. I'm shooting a Lyman 50cal great plains. It's been awhile on the twist. I believe it's the universal twist 1:48 if not mistaken. I've shot balls and patch and roughly same result. When I shoot I didnt put it on a stand I've been using a shooting stick. I am certainly not getting 2 inch groups i think the average is 5 to 6 inches. But the first shot always seems low and off plate. At one point i did file the front sight down being it always seemed to shoot high. But that was a couple years back with 3f powder. I got a hold of 2f and this is where I'm at. With my hunting skills i should be getting tags filled with the smoke pole but every year I say im gonna hone this gun but somehow get caught with the season upon me and no time. So im starting early this year.

 

[olskool]

first off you need a good rest on a good table with shooting bags or at least something solid! shooting sticks is no way to test a group! if you have a tendency to flinch, especially at the first shot, guess where you will pull, down that's where. get you a good rest and start over, take your time, lots of time. shooting good groups or checking a problem is not something that can be rushed. if in doubt get another shooter to shoot and see if they shoot low the first shot. I agree with others, if it is shooting "pie plate" sized groups then there is a problem more than a low first shot.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Filing the front sight down will raise the impact not lower the impact.

What lubricant are you using when you store the rifle?
What steps do you follow when you get ready to shoot?

 

[Carbon 6]

I'm sorry the thread is being watched but was never notified. So I'll try and make this a good answer. I'm shooting a Lyman 50cal great plains. It's been awhile on the twist. I believe it's the universal twist 1:48 if not mistaken. I've shot balls and patch and roughly same result. When I shoot I didnt put it on a stand I've been using a shooting stick. I am certainly not getting 2 inch groups i think the average is 5 to 6 inches. But the first shot always seems low and off plate. At one point i did file the front sight down being it always seemed to shoot high. But that was a couple years back with 3f powder. I got a hold of 2f and this is where I'm at. With my hunting skills i should be getting tags filled with the smoke pole but every year I say im gonna hone this gun but somehow get caught with the season upon me and no time. So im starting early this year.

Another thing that can change the point of impact is removing the barrel for cleaning, It might take that first shot to re-seat the barrel in it's proper position.
Try cleaning the gun without removing the barrel once and see if you have a change in impact.

 

[Casem4]

I'm sorry I miss spoke I filed when it was shooting high years back. And I am aware you need a good rest for testing. At this point I'm not happy with the accuracy but I wanted real world shooting practice being it's for hunting. I've been trying to hone this gun for awhile. But where I have to shoot is a pain in ace to get to and I'm also running a business so time is valuable. My shooting steps are I run a dry patch to clean out the bore butter I store it in. But I've also cleaned the barrel with pretty much the same result of the flyier using number 13 Thomson center. I load the charge couple of taps grab the real bullet make sure the beeswax and crisco lube is uniform in the rings of the bullet. Sit it in the top push with hand till it wont go any more switch to the ball starter and finish with the ramrod. Rinse and repeat. I clear the touch hole with a pick and use the minimal 4f I can to set it off.

 

[Carbon 6]

I'm sorry I miss spoke I filed when it was shooting high years back. And I am aware you need a good rest for testing. At this point I'm not happy with the accuracy but I wanted real world shooting practice being it's for hunting. I've been trying to hone this gun for awhile. But where I have to shoot is a pain in ace to get to and I'm also running a business so time is valuable. My shooting steps are I run a dry patch to clean out the bore butter I store it in. But I've also cleaned the barrel with pretty much the same result of the flyier using number 13 Thomson center. I load the charge couple of taps grab the real bullet make sure the beeswax and crisco lube is uniform in the rings of the bullet. Sit it in the top push with hand till it wont go any more switch to the ball starter and finish with the ramrod. Rinse and repeat. I clear the touch hole with a pick and use the minimal 4f I can to set it off.

If you have been shooting conicals for years, your lack of accuracy might be due to a leaded barrel.