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First shot always a flyer problem...
- Thread starter Casem4
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Walkingeagle
54 Cal.
Ok, now we got ya covered sir. Might have some lead issues in the bore, but I doubt it. Cast with pure lead only for conicals, not wheel weights. Melt the wheel weight bullets and recast into round ball if you like. Fyi, as a side note, try shooting .490” round balls for plinking or targets with your gun using .015” moose milk lubed patches over 55-60gr of powder. You may be surprised with the accuracy. Anyhow, back to your issue, ditch the bore butter and lube your bullets with 60/40 bees wax/unsalted lard. Also dip your overpowder wad/card in same solution when liquified. 80-90gr of powder will be lots with your setup. You should find your issue solved.
Walk
Walk
If the bullet is tight for the first couple of inches and then pretty much falls down the barrel, You probably have leading at the bore from "engraving the rifling at the bore"
This can cause blow by, gas cutting, and poor rifling engagement. Fouling obviously tightens the lower section of the barrel up to match the now undersized projectile.
Time for a deep clean and de-leading as well as only using pure lead for conicals.
As I said before you also might try a base wad.
If you think it is leaded plug the vent and keep tipping boiling water in and out until you can not touch the whole barrel. That usually lifts the lead off.
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Stupid question. I know un pure casting is a no-no. Is it a little forgiving if using round balls because in theory the patch is against the barrel, not the ball?
I wouldn't say that the bullet falls down the barrel by any means. Its tight at the beginning and I have to watch the ball starter. I can mark it sometimes. Personally I think it get easier because I'm cutting the bands with the riffling. I've checked and the bullet has never separated of the powder even slightly always stays put. But I am definitely thinking that the choice of lead is part of my issue. Plus I think I am going to use a wad behind it. Do you think 3f or 2f powder is the right choice? At 25 yards the bullet was a clean pass thru but I would love as much speed without the sacrifice of accuracy. Or is this just a trial and errorthing
Walkingeagle
54 Cal.
I’d use 3f if it gave best accuracy, less fouling.
Walk
Walk
Who said it's a no no?
Using pure lead is advisable but not the law.
Walkingeagle
54 Cal.
I shot cast WW metal in .490 rb’s for years. They loaded fine and penetrated game like no other. Mostly pass through on deer inside 100yds.
Walk
Walk
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You fellows mention things that I have hardly thought of?
I have found that my rifle will throw a shot six inches high at a 100 yards on a clean barrel.I know my rifle well and hold on the game six inches lower than where I want the ball to strike from then on I hold dead on at 100 yards. It has always fasinated me at the difference in a clean barrel as opposed to a fouled one.
I have found that my rifle will throw a shot six inches high at a 100 yards on a clean barrel.I know my rifle well and hold on the game six inches lower than where I want the ball to strike from then on I hold dead on at 100 yards. It has always fasinated me at the difference in a clean barrel as opposed to a fouled one.
Late getting to this horse race, so trying to follow everything that has been covered.
What is it you want to achieve? First round accuracy for hunting? Extended small groups for shooting matches?
Different twists are intended for different projectiles. Choose what you want and work towards getting the desired results. Even if it means "breaking the laws" of ballistics.
I do think that the movement of your hits from first to your main group is the result of something changing. But what?
It may be reseating of the barrel after removal for cleaning.
Not cleaning all the lube/preservative from your barrel prior to shooting could be part of the problem. I suspect a dry patch isn't removing all of it. As others have indicated, try an alcohol soaked patch. Leaving behind a smear of it could create too much slickerlyness as addressed by Dutch in his writings. On subsequent shots, it has been removed and creates different barrel conditions.
An unfouled barrel barrel will achieve different obturation than having one that is even slightly fouled. Better obturation should result in shots impacting higher.
I was taught that the different stresses imparted on a barrel after firing the first couple of shots will make a difference. It may be due to differing obturation or actual changes to the barrel. At the ranges we normally shoot muzzleloaders at, it may not be noticeable to us. Or be accepted as "just one of those things" that happen.
If you hooked on using a REAL/conical/minie type, the leading addressed by Carbon 6 could even be building up shot by shot. Changing barrel conditions which complicates getting the repeatability which leads to what we identify as satisfying accuracy. Personally I doubt the amount that is deposited shot by shot is negligible but who knows.
You don't need an expensive rest. A while ago I was at the range and helped a young fellow who was trying to sight in his suppository gun who had a Lead Sled. I tried a shot and found it extremely uncomfortable. He tried my simpler one and was happy to continue with it during the rest of the session. A decent rest will help minimize human factor until you have what you desire in accuracy. Then go to shooting under what conditions you want.
If what you want is first round accuracy for hunting, use two targets at every session. Fire your first round at one and save it for other sessions. After a few times you should see what you have and can make whatever adjustments you want. Unfortunately different environmental conditions (among others) from day to day could complicate that method.
If you want the smallest groups possible, I think just firing a fouling shot before proceeding with the serious part of your session is the easiest way to go about it.
My thoughts.
What is it you want to achieve? First round accuracy for hunting? Extended small groups for shooting matches?
Different twists are intended for different projectiles. Choose what you want and work towards getting the desired results. Even if it means "breaking the laws" of ballistics.
I do think that the movement of your hits from first to your main group is the result of something changing. But what?
It may be reseating of the barrel after removal for cleaning.
Not cleaning all the lube/preservative from your barrel prior to shooting could be part of the problem. I suspect a dry patch isn't removing all of it. As others have indicated, try an alcohol soaked patch. Leaving behind a smear of it could create too much slickerlyness as addressed by Dutch in his writings. On subsequent shots, it has been removed and creates different barrel conditions.
An unfouled barrel barrel will achieve different obturation than having one that is even slightly fouled. Better obturation should result in shots impacting higher.
I was taught that the different stresses imparted on a barrel after firing the first couple of shots will make a difference. It may be due to differing obturation or actual changes to the barrel. At the ranges we normally shoot muzzleloaders at, it may not be noticeable to us. Or be accepted as "just one of those things" that happen.
If you hooked on using a REAL/conical/minie type, the leading addressed by Carbon 6 could even be building up shot by shot. Changing barrel conditions which complicates getting the repeatability which leads to what we identify as satisfying accuracy. Personally I doubt the amount that is deposited shot by shot is negligible but who knows.
You don't need an expensive rest. A while ago I was at the range and helped a young fellow who was trying to sight in his suppository gun who had a Lead Sled. I tried a shot and found it extremely uncomfortable. He tried my simpler one and was happy to continue with it during the rest of the session. A decent rest will help minimize human factor until you have what you desire in accuracy. Then go to shooting under what conditions you want.
If what you want is first round accuracy for hunting, use two targets at every session. Fire your first round at one and save it for other sessions. After a few times you should see what you have and can make whatever adjustments you want. Unfortunately different environmental conditions (among others) from day to day could complicate that method.
If you want the smallest groups possible, I think just firing a fouling shot before proceeding with the serious part of your session is the easiest way to go about it.
My thoughts.
I use 3fff in all my guns that shoot conicals, That's just what I use, never tried 2ff.
I get good accuracy with 3 fff so I have no incentive to switch. I also don't aim for speed, I aim for accuracy. All my loads are under 90 grains.
Muzzleloading is all trial and error. That's the fun of it.
I should also note that the round ball is my favorite projectile, even when it is not the most accurate or the most powerful.
Rat
50 Cal.
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Hard lead does tend to lead a bore, at lower velocities and pressures. Allows gas cutting. You need a really hard "bump" to fill the bore and grooves with harder lead. In modern guns, the lead being too hard will often lead a barrel very badly. (and yes, visa-versa with very hot loads, then you NEED the hardest lead possible)
This could hold true in a muzzle loader, makes sense that you want soft pure lead to "bump up" easily. And of course there are other variables involved, comparing modern guns and ML's. My point being, harder lead can cause leading, even though it seems counter-intuitive.
Truth, a barrel will vibrate differently, clean or fouled. So there's always going to be a POI difference. But, that can be minimized, even to the point where it can hardly be detected. Certainly for hunting, to where it makes no difference.
This could hold true in a muzzle loader, makes sense that you want soft pure lead to "bump up" easily. And of course there are other variables involved, comparing modern guns and ML's. My point being, harder lead can cause leading, even though it seems counter-intuitive.
Truth, a barrel will vibrate differently, clean or fouled. So there's always going to be a POI difference. But, that can be minimized, even to the point where it can hardly be detected. Certainly for hunting, to where it makes no difference.
Gotta proof read BEFORE I post. Wasn't able to edit.
I suspect that shot to shot leading isn't enough to be concerned with. But, again maybe.
I suspect that shot to shot leading isn't enough to be concerned with. But, again maybe.
For what its worth, my Holliss ball rifle shot low first shot repeatedly , I went to a finer grade of powder, about the same charge. I shot 3 shot groups at 50yds, and kept upping the powder till the first shot from a clean barrel was the same as the POA at 50 yards off the bench. A bit crude but is worked for me. I started of Fg, then went to FFg. This rifle is .72 and uses a patched ball over a greased felt wad. All my testing was done off the bench. Charge is 4 1/2 drams . When hunting you would be lucky to fire more than 3 shots. I had no loading information for this rifle and had to work ver much from scratch. It has a slow twist about 1 turn in 100inches. This particular rifle is short range for shooting tigers in jungle, or deer.
I wouldn't say I'm hooked on a conical style but my gun is designed for them and technically suppose to be able to get more distance. What I will say is I'm hooked on the sport. It really makes one appreciate my ancestors. Considering that with a pistol or a modern rifle Im a crack shot but there is so much more with the flintlock. The challenge was and is incredible.
