First time shooting my flintlock-- Is it too Slow?

[Greebe]

Thanks I will try putting an extra piece of leather in the flint. I think I need a longer flint. I have this one in bevel down and it seems short. It is a 5/8 flint which is about right width wise, but only sticks out past the clamp less than a 1/4" TOTW shows a 3/4" flint for this rifle.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks I will try just firing off the pan and see how fast that is.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks I just picked the hole prior to priming. I filled the pan 1/2 or less on all shots as I had read that more powder would slow things down.

 

[MSW]

greetings from southeast Vermont (my nieces refer to this as the GFN - Great Frozen North - they don't see snow very much)!

you are on the path of truth and light ... you are shooting a flintlock, and soon you will walk with the true cognoscenti, and be a veritable encyclopedia of gun trivia.

however, none of this comes without frustration and hard work (see, also, learning to play a musical instrument or a sport) ... I agree with, especially, the recommendation that you put a flint shaped bit of wood into your cock and practice dry firing. Do NOT dry fire with nothing in the cock- this will break your lock in pretty short order.

Your flint must be nice and sharp if it to work properly. If you have the reknapping thing down, this is a very good thing.

Your flint should hit the frizzen about two thirds of the way up (that is, when the scrape is done, there should be the top third or so that has not come into contact with the frizzen. Check in a darkened room with the rifle unloaded (double check this - holes in the wall are not only embarrassing but surprisingly expensive) and make sure that you're getting plenty of sparks. If not, it may be a good a to look at having the frizzen re- hardened.

The touch hole size is a matter of much debate and discussion. I don't know if your rifle is equipped with a touch hole liner, but if it is, I would encourage you to get a few spare touch hole liners, so if you bore on out too much, you're not off the range until a replacement can be had.

There is much made of 4F vs 3F as pan primer, but I personally think that this is much more in the realm of the theoretical rather than the practical. Must flint shooters have a can of 4F which will last a really really really long time if you consider how much you use to prime.

Now the heart of the matter ... yes, back 'in the day' (when men were men, and giants walked the earth, and paratroopers wore brown boots) I qualified expert shooting the M-14, the M-16, and a few other now obsolete shoulder fired weapons systems (I really miss the M-14- I considered it a bad day if I couldn't pot an E-type at two hundred and fifty meters offhand). Then I got my first flintlock and was completely unable to hit the proverbial broad side of a barn.

A grizzled old fellow (I think he might have been easily forty) saw my struggles and said that these things were almost entirely dependent on follow through. If I didn't follow through my shot, nothing would ever go right. This fellow had a light beard (about a weeks worth) and was shooting a ruger security six, and was carrying a beeper, and had that certain grace only available to those who spend a good bit of time working out - not the body builder physique, the logger or backwoodsman thing ... anyway, it didn't take a rocket scientist to dope out who he was working for, and I figured that anyone who could get to that level was worth a listen, so I did what he said and,

viola!

my groups got smaller.

never saw the guy again, so I couldn't thank him (these people are about as secretive as Howard Hughes).

There is an almost meditative quality to shooting flintlocks (and to some extent caplocks) which is so different from centerfire. That is (to my mind anyway) the allure of the hobby.

Practice your follow throught.
Keep shooting- the frustration point is variable, but the effort is worth it.
and,

make good smoke!


p.s. you should check out his site:
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Dutch Schoultz' method is the best twenty odd bucks you can spend.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks. I may have picked the vent to much. I will try doing it less next time. Any recommendations as how far to run the pick in and do you only do it once? When I make a proper pick how big should it be relative to the vent hole?

 

[Larry Pletcher]

The pick I use is a fine steel wire. I push it into the vent until it hits the opposite wall. I can feel the crunch of the powder as it goes in. When I withdraw the pick I can see granules of barrel powder through the vent. I don't want to push powder away from the vent. A large pick might do that.

Regarding sparks: A single spark may ignite the powder, but 10-15 sparks will build the pan ignition much faster. Think starting a bonfire three or four places as opposed to just one place. That's what multiple sparks do in a pan.

The slow motion video mentioned earlier was done in 2009 at Friendship. We set the cam at 5000 frames/second. The effect is about 170 times slower that normal. I have more than 80 videos like it. In some the fire builds much faster than others. It's my opinion that multiple sparks build the pan fire faster than few or one spark. BTW we can see the difference between the different powders sizes in the slow motion videos.

I normally have this available on my web site, but I was hacked, and we're still getting it worked out. If you search you tube for flint40 you can see more.
Regards,
Pletch

 

[MSW]

what Pletch says is true. (Sorry to hear of the hacking ... just vandalism for the digital age.)

 

[nchawkeye]

You mentioned you just bought some Goex...Are you saying you were not using real black powder???

 

[Billnpatti]

When flintlock is working properly, it should feel and sound like a caplock. There should be very little or no lag when the trigger is pulled. A flintlock does not work well with substitute powders. To get a proper ignition, you need real black powder, There is nothing wrong with using 3f in the pan, it works just fine. I use 4f and Swiss Null B in my flintlock pan but 3f will do the job just about as well. Another thing is to make sure that your touch hole is large enough. I, as well as many others on this forum, prefer a hole that is 1/16 inch in size. If your hole is much smaller than that, it can possibly cause the slow ignitions that you are having. Always place a pick in your vent when you are loading to keep the powder out of the hole. Allowing powder to fill your hole can cause what is termed a "fuse" effect where the flame had to burn through the powder in the hole to get to the main charge. We are speaking of only fractions of a second but as you are wibbling and wobbling on your target, the slight delay can make a difference in your POI. Don't cover your hole with the pan charge. It seems that the fastest ignitions are obtained when the bulk of your pan charge (3 to 5 grains) is banked under your hole with some of it trailing out into the pan to catch the sparks. Wipe your pan and your flint after each shot to remove the fouling.

While wiping between shots is not absolutely necessary until you have a hard time getting the ball down the bore, it sure helps in the accuracy department. if you are looking for maximum accuracy, wiping as I described will sure make a difference in the accuracy of your rifle. it just makes sure that the bore is exactly the same for each shot and minimizes the effect of fouling on each shot. But, it is optional and many folks choose not to wipe until the bore is so fouled that they have a hard time getting the ball down the bore. Fouling causes higher breach pressures and as the breach pressure increases, the muzzle velocity gets higher causing the ball to strike the target higher. You can see the effect of fouling on a target, it causes vertical stringing.

This should get your rifle shooting as it should.

If I repeated something someone else has said, and I am sure that I did, I hope they will excuse me. Please take any of my repeats as simply emphasis of what others have said.

 

[Greebe]

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I need to work on my follow through for sure. I don't think it helped that I Was shooting standing. Like I said my shots were in a paper plate shooting offhand at 35 yards without support. Next time I go out I will bring some shooting sticks with me.

I do not know if there is much that I can do to make the flint hit more than 1/2 of the frizzen. It seems like it is a lock design issue perhaps. I am going to order some 3/4" flints from TOTW as that is the size they say to use. The one I have is 5/8" and seems cheep, i.e. soft and crumbly.

I do not have any extra liners, but I could make my own on in the shop. I found a website showing proper inside cone shape profile. Maybe I will make one out of 303 stainless with a .0625" hole and internal cone shape and see how that works.

I will give the dry firing with a wood flint as shot and see if that helps. I remember doing dry firing in the basic training with a washer on the end of the barrel. We dry fired all day like that in different positions until the DI's were satisfied with taking us to the range. I never had an issue with it as I had grown up in a shooting friendly and military background family.

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[Greebe]

Thanks I was using Goex FFFg as a prime and main charge. Half full pan. Tried banked near vent hole, away from hole, and evenly spread in the pan. All three seemed the same to me.

From what you guys are saying my touch hole is too small at .055" and needs to be enlarged to .0625" to speed things up. Tonight I will enlarge the hole and see if that helps this weekend when I do shooting.

For priming I used a TC flintlock primer, which says that with one press will dispense enough FFFFg powder to fill a TC rifle pan half full. On this rifle it barely put much powder using FFFg so I did 2 to 3 presses. Still only filled it about halfway or so. Maybe I got to much powder.

I did not wipe the pan between shots either, so maybe that contributed to things as well.

Thanks,
Greeb

 

[Billnpatti]

That coned liner that you are talking about sounds like Jim Chambers' White Lightnin' liner. It is an excellent design and if you make one like it with a .0625 hole, you will have a winner. I have replaced all the liners in my flintlocks with Chambers White Lightnin' liner. I had to buy one of his drills and taps because his liners don't use a standard hole or thread size. I have no idea why. But if you are making your own, you can make them to a size that will screw right into your existing barrel hole.

Sounds like you got some soft American chert for your existing flint. The best flints that I know of come from either England or France. Both are excellent flints. The cost a bit more (about $2/flint) but they are worth it. Personally, I can tell no significant difference between the English flints and the French flints so I buy the less expensive English flints. You might as well buy 10 or 12 of them because you will use them and you will save on postage if you buy several at a time. If you can find a flint wallet, it is a good idea to have one to keep your spare flints in when you are carrying them in your shooting bag. It will just keep them from banging around in your bag plus, they often have sharp edges that will cut or scratch other things in you bag including your fingers when you reach in there for something.

 

[Greebe]

It is strange that he does not make the White Lightning in standard sizes. Maybe that is to keep you using his liners once you do the conversion. I plan to just make it to fit the M6x.75 that is currently there.

I am going to put in an order from TOTW for flint, might by an extra liner while I am at it since they are only $3 or so. As far as flint, they say to use 3/4" x 3/4". Do you think I should order the 3/4" x 7/8" instead to try to bring up where the flint is hitting the frizzen?

Thanks,
Greebe

 

[Billnpatti]

Use your wooden "flint" to see what will work best in your gun and then order that size from Track. You can also talk to them and tell them exactly what lock you have and they are very good about knowing exactly what size flint to use. But if you make a wooden "flint" to go in your lock and then trim it until you have it striking exactly where you want, just measure it and order the closest size to it. If you have that info when you talke to the folks at Track, they can help even more.

The higher the flint strikes the frizzen, the more sparks you are likely to get but you have to keep in mind that the flint has to clear the heel of the frizzen and not hang up there or you won't get any sparks into the pan. It just won't work like that. You can also move your flint back and forth in the cock just a tad to make fine corrections.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The flint came with the lock and seems to be of poor quality. It looks like a blond colored translucent material like you would see in a geode. It is a manufactured one that is pretty soft.

Whatever you have, I would not call it a 'flint'. Do get some English black flints. There are others but these are the standard most prefer.

 

[bpd303]

I try to make my picks a snug fit in the vent. Make a lot of them out of large paper clips. With the description of the flint you have it would definitely be advantageous to replace it with an English flint. I have six flintlocks and none of the spark well with the amber sawn flints.

 

[Greebe]

Oops I was wrong on the touch hole size. It is actually around a 49 or .073". I counted the wrong number of gauge pins. Sounds a little big eh? Wouldn't this however make it faster?

 

[Larry Pletcher]

This is speculation and my opinion. The speed of the ignition is called "flame front propagation". It travels in all directions at the same speed, slowing down the farther it gets from the origination. It should travel at the same speed through different holes, but a larger hole permits more going through. What happens when the fire reaches the barrel charge can be debated.
Regards,
Pletch
BTW, I would not enlarge a .073" vent.

 

[Greebe]

OK, so I took the vent liner out and took a 60deg center drill and coned the inside a bit. This looks better than the straight factory contour. I also took a 60deg countersink and lightly opened up the outside of the vent as it had a few little burs on it. That can't hurt I suppose.

I also noticed that the frizzen is touching the barrel a little bit and actually rubbing off the bluing on the barrel. Later tonight I will relieve the edge of the frizzen to keep it from contacting the barrel. It actually is a little rough opening. I did not notice this when I inlet the lock. It seemed smooth at that time but maybe it settled in the stock after shooting it a few times. That might have been slowing it down upon opening.

Maybe all these things will make it fire a little faster. We will see this weekend when I get out and shoot it again.

Greebe

 

[steved]

Coned vent liner, proper size vent hole, Goex FFF, sharpened flint and knowing to follow through on your shot. Sounds to me like you are on your way to fast ignition and good shooting. Let us know how it goes next time out.