First Time. TC Hawken

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Hey everyone, first off I’d like to say I finally purchased my first ML after introducing myself on here some time ago. Pic below of the package I purchased. It’s a TC Hawken percussion. I’m unsure of the year, but if came with a few essentials. And I’m assuming a 1:48 twist from my research. But I have a few questions being a first timer…what else do I need to get? Obviously powder and caps and some lead, but above that from what I’ve got I’m thinking;

Patch puller
Nipple wrench
Bore butter
Patches
Cleaning brush/swab

Anything I’m missing?! Also question on caps/powder. I live in an extremely rural area of Canada with limited supplies, that being said I want to buy what I need first and not learn the hard way. So anyways my other big question here is caps…the man I purchased the rifle from claims it takes 209 primer caps and not the common #11 caps I’ve been reading about?! But I think he’s more of a consignment dealer and not personally owning the rifle. So what is the major difference here? Can they be used interchangeably or do they drastically effect powder type? Does the nipple need to be changed? And how do I tell for sure which one it takes? Thanks in advanced, I can’t wait to get started.

 

[Tasbay]

Looking at the photo all you really need is Powder, Caps & balls. I would suggest you get a unbreakable (Derilin?) ramrod. Track of the Wolf have those.
Your rifle will take the #11 Percussion cap, The 209 primers is for inline rifles, yours is percussion sidelock. Powder and primers will be the hard bits to find, I just make my own powder and use toy cap gun caps for percussion caps to conserve my #11 caps in this period of shortages.
You have yourself a great gun there, I have 2 of them, one percussion and one flint.

 

[VA Hawken]

A better close-up picture of the hammer and nipple would tell a lot. A "209 primer" is basically what is used in shotgun shells, and many of the in-line muzzleloaders. #11 caps would be the most common for a T/C Hawken. You can find spare nipples from a number of vendors, Track of the Wolf is one who handles a lot of muzzleloading supplies, but there may be others closer to you that I'm not familiar with.

 

[Phil Coffins]

The picture is too small of the lock and nipple for me to see what you have. There is an after market device for using 209 instead of caps and I’m thinking it’s not necessary. A standard cap is cheaper and works well.
Cleaning jag?
Im in the dont use Bore Butter camp, it leaves a build up.

 

[chorizo]

click on the picture and it will open in a new tab. click on the picture again and it will zoom in. The attached pic is large enough to see what is what.

 

[64Springer]

Remove the brush from your inventory.

Save it for a rifle where the bore can be accessed from both ends.

Ignore this advice and your next thread will be: Stuck Brush In Bore

Have fun with her.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Remove the brush from your inventory.

Save it for a rifle where the bore can be accessed from both ends.

Ignore this advice and your next thread will be: Stuck Brush In Bore"

Have fun with her.

Thanks for the info. Do you have any tips on a good initial bore clean then? I have used an inspection camera to check it out and the bore looks to have a little rust in some spots(probably sat for a bit before the seller got it), for now I’ve thrown some defouler/rust cleaning patches down, let it soak and swabbed it til they came out clean, oiled afterwards to protect it for now. But I feel like a bit of a scrub could help a lot here as well?

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Here’s a close up picture. Spare Nipple and the nipple/lock. Excuse the bit of corrosion around the nipple. The rifle is overall in pretty good condition and the rifling is okay aside from what looks like a bit of rust in my inspection camera, I think it may have sat before. I’m assuming this other brass tool I’ve got in the picture is for cleaning/swabbing? I was somewhat leery myself on the 209 primer comment from the seller but I thought I’d ask here, #11 is notoriously hard to find. I’m familiar with 209’s but not with ML #11’s, I reload all my own centrefires but was unsure of interchangeability. Plastic caps and possibly the tool for making my own caps is going to be needed for now. All I can currently find in Canada is the Remington low charge re-enactment caps. A powder recipe as well I think a 2f or 3f from my research. Triple 7 and RS are easier to find for my powder at least at the moment. It did come with some 275gr .45 sabots if I do get some gear together atleast. Excuse my lack of knowledge in this ML world, I’ve been more into archery for quite some time.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

Ok, you do have a cleaning jag, it's the brass ribbed piece in the first pic on your last post.

There was and maybe still is a 209 conversion nipple kit available for TC and other side lock rifles. My dad's old New Englander has one.

But, what you have there are regular nipples. Another common thing people do is install a musket cap nipple in place of #11. I can't tell which you have there by the pics, but they're definitely not 209 conversion pieces.

Powder, 2F has always worked well for me and my 50cals. But based on what I've seen stated by alot of folks in here, 3F works very well too. I recently got some 3F for the first time but I have not yet tried it.

IMO, real black powder is best. But if you are having a hard time finding it, Pyrodex in my opinion is second best. I tried T7 years back and had a lot of issues with it. But, others say it works well for them. YMMV.

Welcome to the club

 

[Tasbay]

Yep that's a #11 Nipple. With the shortages #11 Caps are near impossible to find, Some seem to be turning up in the States but not outside of the U.S at the moment that I know of.
The Re-enactment caps should be musket caps and are to big for the #11 nipple.
Find some of the plastic toy cap gun caps. Remove the white insert with a pin and sprinkle in some black powder till cap`s are about half full. Spray the caps with hair spray to hold powder in the cape and let dry. They are now as good as bought caps. Be gentle fitting them to the nipple as are quite volatile compared to Percussion caps, also carry a pin to remove the small plastic plug that sometimes get left in the top of the nipple when using the plastic caps.
What are you using for patches, I see the mould is for round ball, I just use Ticking cut to squares and lubed with Olive Oil.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Ditto on getting rid of the bore brush.

There is a difference between #11 caps and musket caps. Reenactor caps are probably low powered musket caps. Don't buy them.

I see that you have an extra nipple... no, not a crude joke... you always want at least one of those, and the prices for them have gone to the moon as of late. You also have a Lee REAL bullet mold as near as I can tell, so you probably want to get yourself a lead melting pot, some lead and maybe a lead ladle if you want to do some bullet casting. Bore Butter works well enough to lube them with.... though it melts in hot weather. You might want to acquire a .490 round ball mold, but that is up to you. Round balls provide for cheap shooting and they kill deer just fine within their limitations.

My suggestion is that you find a source of #11 caps. You might have to order online from the same place you might have to order powder from. 209 nipples and musket nipples are available for your gun, but as you have two perfectly good standard nipples, no reason not to use them unless you are forced to use only Pyrodex or Triple 7 powder. If you don't plan to use your nipples, (no not another crude joke) I will give you $10.00 for each of them if you pay shipping. New, they are going for more than $20.00 (American).

I would also suggest a metal ramrod. Yours is a factory original hickory rod. They break, sometimes impaling the shooter's hand/arm. It hurts when that happens. You can use the hickory rod if you want, but if you need to get the hammer out to seat the projectile, you are doing something wrong and you WILL eventually break that rod. With a .490 round ball, you generally want .010" patches.

Clean with hot soapy water. I use Murphy's Oil Soap, but really any liquid soap will work. Just a little bit. Lots of people like Dawn and some folks use only water. There are lots of opinions on cleaning methodology. Experiment, do what works, stay away from hydrogen peroxide, but within a day of shooting, especially if you are using Pyrodex, CLEAN your gun.

My other suggestion is to lurk on this forum for as much time as you can afford. Lots of good information, albeit from opinionated old farts such as myself who are often not in agreement. Ask us stupid questions... we LIKE stupid questions, though, as they say, the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask.

 

[ORBushman]

My other suggestion is to lurk on this forum for as much time as you can afford.

But, that can get costly too!

Congrats on the fine rifle and accessories!

 

[ETipp]

Hey everyone, first off I’d like to say I finally purchased my first ML after introducing myself on here some time ago. Pic below of the package I purchased. It’s a TC Hawken percussion. I’m unsure of the year, but if came with a few essentials. And I’m assuming a 1:48 twist from my research. But I have a few questions being a first timer…what else do I need to get? Obviously powder and caps and some lead, but above that from what I’ve got I’m thinking;

Patch puller
Nipple wrench
Bore butter
Patches
Cleaning brush/swab

Anything I’m missing?! Also question on caps/powder. I live in an extremely rural area of Canada with limited supplies, that being said I want to buy what I need first and not learn the hard way. So anyways my other big question here is caps…the man I purchased the rifle from claims it takes 209 primer caps and not the common #11 caps I’ve been reading about?! But I think he’s more of a consignment dealer and not personally owning the rifle. So what is the major difference here? Can they be used interchangeably or do they drastically effect powder type? Does the nipple need to be changed? And how do I tell for sure which one it takes? Thanks in advanced, I can’t wait to get started.

Congrats on the new toy. You will most likely like the wonderful world of ML. Maybe not so much the necessary cleaning as much, but it goes with the territory.

Perhaps it was already mentioned, if so I overlooked it. But you will need a ball starter as well.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Okay awesome info everyone. The cleaning jag is a plus, I’ve never seen one like that in my searches so I had to ask. So far from what I’ve been able to find #11 caps are NOT available anywhere in Canada. I will have to resort to a 209 conversion nipple or make my own caps. As for powder from the usual people I get my centrefire supplies from I’ve narrowed down my availability to Triple 7 FFG/FFFG(both available), Pyrodex RS/Select and one supplier also has Schuetzen 2F/3F available. I’ve never heard of the latter but it’s a decent price. Shipping is another issue, in Canada powders are only available via ground shipment which can take awhile and be expensive. Luckily enough I do live near the border and supplies might be available for some things in Minnesota. My ball mold is a .490 round ball, I’ll need a ladle, I have everything else from my other hobbies. After gathering all this info in short time I’ve narrowed down to the following list of gear that I should be able to order for ~$75 shipped almost all from one supplier other then caps and powder;

Upgraded rod
Ladle
Patch Puller
Patches
Nipple wrench
Bore Butter(or some other lube)

Currently I’ve got on hand lots of G36 and Amsoil Cleaner/Lube, I’ve never had issues with it for cleaning my other centrefire rifles but I may use the soap and water trick, lots of Dawn in this shop. As for patches all I can find is pre-lubed. Either WonderLube or EZ clean shooting patch, 0.010 or 0.015 from Traditions or CVA. Or I make my own, im sure it’s not too difficult. As for lube some guys here say they’re against bore butter? Can a shotgun choke grease be used in substitute for nipple install? Also for cleaning the breech? I’m assuming some sort of snake or q-tip would be helpful? I know it’s common on flintlocks but I imagine percussions get dirty in there as well. Thanks again.

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

Buy the Schuetzen 2F and/or 3F! It's good stuff, real black powder.

I used to use Goex, but my current stash of powder is Schuetzen and I'm well pleased with it.

So in order of priority in my humble opinion:
1: Schuetzen 2F and/or 3F
2: Pryodex Select 2F equivalent
3: Standard Pyrodex 2F equivalent
4: Triple 7


As for musket caps. My local hardware store has had them available over the last few months and I've bought a few tins. They are CCI Multiple Use as opposed to Reenactors and states by CCI to be suitable for reenacting as well as live fire. Haven't tried them yet as I still have a descent supply of #11 I'm working through. But I have seen musket caps in the past that were marked "for reenactment". You maye be well served to grab a few tins of the CCI Multi-Use if you can. Just need a musket nipple for your TC to run them.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Okay awesome info everyone. The cleaning jag is a plus, I’ve never seen one like that in my searches so I had to ask. So far from what I’ve been able to find #11 caps are NOT available anywhere in Canada. I will have to resort to a 209 conversion nipple or make my own caps. As for powder from the usual people I get my centrefire supplies from I’ve narrowed down my availability to Triple 7 FFG/FFFG(both available), Pyrodex RS/Select and one supplier also has Schuetzen 2F/3F available. I’ve never heard of the latter but it’s a decent price. Shipping is another issue, in Canada powders are only available via ground shipment which can take awhile and be expensive. Luckily enough I do live near the border and supplies might be available for some things in Minnesota. My ball mold is a .490 round ball, I’ll need a ladle, I have everything else from my other hobbies. After gathering all this info in short time I’ve narrowed down to the following list of gear that I should be able to order for ~$75 shipped almost all from one supplier other then caps and powder;

Upgraded rod
Ladle
Patch Puller
Patches
Nipple wrench
Bore Butter(or some other lube)

Currently I’ve got on hand lots of G36 and Amsoil Cleaner/Lube, I’ve never had issues with it for cleaning my other centrefire rifles but I may use the soap and water trick, lots of Dawn in this shop. As for patches all I can find is pre-lubed. Either WonderLube or EZ clean shooting patch, 0.010 or 0.015 from Traditions or CVA. Or I make my own, im sure it’s not too difficult. As for lube some guys here say they’re against bore butter? Can a shotgun choke grease be used in substitute for nipple install? Also for cleaning the breech? I’m assuming some sort of snake or q-tip would be helpful? I know it’s common on flintlocks but I imagine percussions get dirty in there as well. Thanks again.

A pipe cleaner is the tool generally used to clean a flash channel, though you may find that you don't really need it if you clean it using the bucket of hot soapy water method. G96 and other common smokeless powder solvents are NOT for black powder. There ARE commercial products available, but hot soapy water works best if you are at home. T/C black powder solvent works well in the field, I would suppose that others work as well.

Scheutzen is a brand name of actual black powder, Grab all you can afford. I'm told it is good stuff, though I have never used it. You are "supposed" to use 2f black powder, but 3f works well enough and that is pretty much all I (and MANY others) use.

Be careful about bringing a low explosive like black powder across the border. You MAY run into trouble as the Canadian government has apparently taken leave of it's collective senses as of late. Check the laws, bring a copy of the relevant laws if necessary and be prepared for bureaucratic nonsense that may take a while.

You might also want to add a "range rod" with a bore protector to your list. When I am at my backyard range, that is all I use to load with.

Pre-lubed patches work OK, but can get expensive considering that any cotton cloth of the correct thickness will work just fine. I've also used recycled linen and silk with some success. Pillow ticking is generally the stuff most people recommend. Your mileage may vary.

I say stay with non-petroleum lubes. Others say otherwise.

Any anti-seize product will work for nipple threads... that includes choke tube lube. I use a little tube of T/C breach plug grease... and you don't need much of it. Prior to the T/C product, I just used white lithium grease. As you will be taking the nipple out for cleaning every time you shoot (or you should be) stuck nipples are a pretty rare event unless you let the gun sit in the trunk of your car for a month or two in damp weather.

Lube the internal parts of the lock with some kind of gun grease. Ewl works well. Before you lube it, clean it out, first with hot soapy water and then with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber... or brake cleaner or carburetor cleaner. Then blow the liquids out and maybe let the lock sit in a 200 degree oven for ten minutes to dry thoroughly. This is something you don't need to do all that often. Used guns tend to be gunked up when you first get them. I got an old Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle that I could tell horror stories about.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

Buy the Schuetzen 2F and/or 3F! It's good stuff, real black powder.

I used to use Goex, but my current stash of powder is Schuetzen and I'm well pleased with it.

So in order of priority in my humble opinion:
1: Schuetzen 2F and/or 3F
2: Pryodex Select 2F equivalent
3: Standard Pyrodex 2F equivalent
4: Triple 7


As for musket caps. My local hardware store has had them available over the last few months and I've bought a few tins. They are CCI Multiple Use as opposed to Reenactors and states by CCI to be suitable for reenacting as well as live fire. Haven't tried them yet as I still have a descent supply of #11 I'm working through. But I have seen musket caps in the past that were marked "for reenactment". You maye be well served to grab a few tins of the CCI Multi-Use if you can. Just need a musket nipple for your TC to run them.

Good info. Schuetzen it is if I can get it shipped. Those are the exact re-enactment caps I mentioned. I was told they just changed the lid from “multipurpose” to re-enactment but the 4 wing caps stayed the same. Finding a conversion nipple would be the next issue is all. It may be worth a shot for the cost and availability though just to get started.

 

[LIVINtheLIFE]

A pipe cleaner is the tool generally used to clean a flash channel, though you may find that you don't really need it if you clean it using the bucket of hot soapy water method. G96 and other common smokeless powder solvents are NOT for black powder. There ARE commercial products available, but hot soapy water works best if you are at home. T/C black powder solvent works well in the field, I would suppose that others work as well.

Scheutzen is a brand name of actual black powder, Grab all you can afford. I'm told it is good stuff, though I have never used it. You are "supposed" to use 2f black powder, but 3f works well enough and that is pretty much all I (and MANY others) use.

Be careful about bringing a low explosive like black powder across the border. You MAY run into trouble as the Canadian government has apparently taken leave of it's collective senses as of late. Check the laws, bring a copy of the relevant laws if necessary and be prepared for bureaucratic nonsense that may take a while.

You might also want to add a "range rod" with a bore protector to your list. When I am at my backyard range, that is all I use to load with.

Pre-lubed patches work OK, but can get expensive considering that any cotton cloth of the correct thickness will work just fine. I've also used recycled linen and silk with some success. Pillow ticking is generally the stuff most people recommend. Your mileage may vary.

I say stay with non-petroleum lubes. Others say otherwise.

Any anti-seize product will work for nipple threads... that includes choke tube lube. I use a little tube of T/C breach plug grease... and you don't need much of it. Prior to the T/C product, I just used white lithium grease. As you will be taking the nipple out for cleaning every time you shoot (or you should be) stuck nipples are a pretty rare event unless you let the gun sit in the trunk of your car for a month or two in damp weather.

Lube the internal parts of the lock with some kind of gun grease. Ewl works well. Before you lube it, clean it out, first with hot soapy water and then with Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber... or brake cleaner or carburetor cleaner. Then blow the liquids out and maybe let the lock sit in a 200 degree oven for ten minutes to dry thoroughly. This is something you don't need to do all that often. Used guns tend to be gunked up when you first get them. I got an old Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle that I could tell horror stories about.

Schuetzen will be my go to if It can be reasonably shipped. As for the lubes/cleaner the G96 I don’t use much. But the Amsoil says black powder approved/safe. But I can order Butch’s cleaning and oiling products as well up here. As for buying powder or caps in MN yes I agree, assuming laws haven’t changed from years and years ago I used to buy some ammo in the US when I travelled. Import and possession was not an issue at Canadian Customs with a firearm license, they said they couldn’t do anything cause I was legal to carry it and buy in my own country. But a non-resident possessing it in the US was an issue actually. I stopped buying after I learned that. But it was interesting that I could legally buy ammunition as a non-resident, but I couldn’t possess it. Most of the outdoors stores I did purchase from back then kinda just said it’s a “at your own risk” kind of thing. That was with ammunition though, reloading supplies could be very different.

 

[Grenadier1758]

By all means using real black powder such as the Schuetzen is the best powder. Your rifle is designed for #11 caps. Due to fact that #11 caps are simply not available, using the musket caps is about the preferred back up option. The Reenactor caps will have enough energy to set off a charge of 3Fg black powder. The 209 primers are a solution to a really nonexistent problem.

Cleaning is simple and with the T/C removable barrel. Remove the barrel from the stock, remove the nipple and flush it out in soapy water. Black powder is easily soluble in water and the soap removes greasy residue from the patch lubricant. There is a screw in the side of the nipple seat. It is misleadingly called a clean out screw. It's left over from the drilling of the flash channel and T/C felt they had to give it a name and a purpose. It is too easy to destroy the screw slot and cleaning is just as efficient by removing the nipple and flushing in a bucket of soapy water.

The best protection for your bore after cleaning is a good rust inhibiting lubricant such as Barricade by Birchwood Casey. It leaves a surface protection that is far better than the greasy coating of Bore Butter that you will need to remove with rubbing alcohol so you can reliably shoot your rifle without filling the powder chamber with burnt Bore Butter and fouling.

Patch lubricants can cover all sorts of solutions. The simplest is spit. In extreme cold it can freeze on loading, so an oil-based lube is better. Sure Bore Butter can work, but so does dish soap and water, olive oil, or Ballistol and water among many other patch lubricants. At your stage of being new, there is no need for exotic patch lubricants. Even at my level of experience, I see no need for anything more exotic than 1 part of Ballistol and 7 parts of water.

 

[Bighorserider]

The cleaning jag you have looks like the correct TC one. Don't use a flat ended one or it will push crud down into the curved pocket in the breech plug and block the flash channel. Don't ask how I know.