first trip to the range...two shots

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logandiana

32 Cal.
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I was able to take my 50 cal frontier to the range today to fire it for the first time. This was also the first time I'd ever fired a muzzle loading rifle of any kind.
I got set up at the 50 yard line and took my time.
I used a .490 hornady ball and .020 wonderlube ox yoke in front of 70 grains of ffg triple seven.

I am hooked! Reel me in.

I fired two shots, but must of done something wrong because my 3rd round didn't fire at all. I tried a new cap, but nothing. Then another new cap but nothing.I removed the nipple but could find any obstruction. There must have been something cloggin up the works though. Any way after fiddling with it I packed it up and headed back home. I used my new ball puller to unload the gun at home. I had screwed it in at the range but I couldn't get the leverage to pull it out. Once home I had to stick the end of the rod in the vice and then yank on the gun a few times. It finally came out! Any way I was happy with my first ever two shots.

My two shot group at 50 yards. Look at the size of those holes!


My set up at the range
 
Welcome and congrats.

I have never been able to get a screw into a ball where I could get it out for someone. Might wanna invest in a CO2 ball discharger.

That is the newest looking gun I have ever seen, lol, enjoy and be safe.
 
thats some fine shooting it would be worth it to invest in one of thos C02 ball removewrs but for a ramrod puller all you need is a boot lace are piece of leather strap about 15 inches long.
 
So was there powder in the rifle?
I have found that if I have somehow crudded up my powder and it won't ignite, that removing the nipple and working some fresh powder into the gun from behind then replacing the nipple and trying again works most the time. If you do have some fouled powder chances are that there is some un-fouled powder in there also. If you can just get it ignited, you will be back in business. Also works in a dry ball situation I hear, but you have to put enough powder in the thing to fill the breach and also be sure the ball is completely seated.
 
Cynthialee said:
So was there powder in the rifle?
Also works in a dry ball situation I hear, but you have to put enough powder in the thing to fill the breach and also be sure the ball is completely seated.
I think that in a dry ball situation the patent breech would really shine. Enough room to work plenty of powder in behind that ball.
O.
Yeah man, look at those holes. As a new to black powder & PRB shooter myself I have been very impressed by the way the target & back board get smacked & torn back so much.
O.
 
Did you thoroughly clean the barrel and patent breech chamber with a degreaser? Some of the gung they use as a preservative can really gum up the patent breech chamber and firing channel if they are not removed before firing.
 
Welcome to using a Pedersoli Patent breach. :blah:
If you did not wipe correctly between shots, that means with too wet a patch, you most likely gunked up the bottom of the breach where the firing channel is located and then dumped your powder onto the wet end. That gunks up a gun real fast. Get a brush to clean that patent breech chamber. Always store your rifle after oiling with the muzzle down. That prevents oil from the patch running down the breech chamber and causing this at the first shot.
A lot of time the chamber is rather small and after several shots fired, the gunk in the chamber causes the 2F powder to bridge. And it will not go down all the way causing a misfire.
 
It works in a dry ball situation. I just work in the powder, nipple off of course, until I can't get anymore in. I'm guessing 10grs. Ram the ball one more time for good luck, and fire away. I doubt that fills the breach, so there's some air space. I think there's not enough pressure to damage the barrel, but there's enough to "spit" the ball out. Last time this happened, I hate to admit I've dry balled more than once, I held dead on @ 50yds. The ball hit the dirt about 5 yds in front of the target stand. on the other hand recoil was non existent. It's a pain, but it works.
 
There was powder in the barrel.

I had thoroughly cleaned the barrel the other day and gave the bore a light coat of oil.
The nipple must have been crudded up with something.
So what is the proper procedure between shots? Should I be running something down the barrel every time? Should I be cleaning out the nipple area is some way? Does this method change if I am using other than ffg triple 7 or if I was using other than a patched roundball?
One think I hadn't considered but may be an issue. I bought the gun used. I don't know if the nipple is the original one. Is there a correct one or are all #11 nipples the same? It screws into the drum fine, and it did work on the first two shots...
 
I use a patch SLIGHTLY moistened with my "moose milk" concoction between shots. Some folks simply put a clean patch in their mouth between shots to moisten with saliva. That works great when you're hunting btw, but I don't do it that way at the range.
I use a "T" handle on my cleaning rod that screws into one end when needed. It allows me to use a tree branch, or any other reasonably sturdy overhead structure to put the "T" over, and pull straight down on the rifle after screwing the ball puller into the stuck ball. Many ranges which are dedicated to BP shooting have metal brackets screwed into the overhead beams for this purpose.
Your ball/patch/lube/powder combination, in YOUR barrel will determine what technique works best. Figuring it out is half the fun. Along the way...we sometimes find techniques that DON'T work. Whatever you were doing is one of those for you.
Enjoy the journey Pard.
 
Try this:
- Snap a cap first thing.
- Pour powder
- Drive a hard card over the powder (see ToTW for cards)
- Drive patched ball.

The card over the powder keeps the breech dry and runs the crud in the barrel down to the powder when you load it. I suppose if you shoot all day, it could cause an issue eventually, but so far... not for me. I flush the breech when I get home with hot water and soap.

Only use a damp, as in nearly dry, patch to clean when the loading gets heavy. You clean to the card (powder behind the card). With a card being driven - that could be 20+ shots.
 
If you're going to fish in some powder use 4Fg real black. Your chances of it lighting are higher, and you can get more weight in small granuled stuff in to the space that larger stuff like 2Fg subs. you might want to try it behind the nipple AND the cleanout bolster screw. the more you can get in there the better the chance of it lighting and having enough oomph to drive out the ball.

Sometimes if a ball isn't fully seated an existing charge will just lay there and not light. That's usually a bigger problem in flint than in percussion though.

Lots of guys use alcohol to swab instead of water / saliva.
 
There is a lot of good advice given in the posts, but I don't think it needs to be so complicated. Although I only shoot flintlock, I can help you some.

First, pulling a ball with gun powder under it can be dangerous. Use Alden's suggestion and get a CO2 gas discharger for expelling balls from the muzzle. Be sure the muzzle is pointing in a safe direction, as the ball is usually expelled at considerable force. Unscrewing the nipple and pouring 4F powder into the bolster is also an easy way to expel a ball from the muzzle. A lot of shooters carry those brass 3-grain primers (Track of the Wolf) in their shooting bags for such occasions.

You did well to thoroughly clean the preservative grease/oil from your new rifle's bore before taking it out to the range. But if you put petroleum-based oil down the bore to protect it, then that too will need to be thoroughly cleaned before your next shooting session. Use a good solvent, like brake cleaner. Before loading the rifle for the first time at a shooting session, step up to the firing line and snap-off a couple of caps to clear the patent breach. Hold the muzzle down close to some grass or other vegetation. If the patent breach is clear, the caps will move the grass blades, even kick up a little dust.

Some clean the bore between each shot when target shooting, while others will only clean when it becomes noticeably difficult to run the patched ball down the barrel when loading. When cleaning between each shot, use a damp (not wet) patch and run it down and and back out the bore only once. Don't pump it up and down, as that will only push the fouling into the patent breach and plug it up. Keep a small bowl of water nearby, as the patches can be rinsed out and re-used all day long.

I see no reason to put anything on top of your powder before running the patched ball down. Some do it, but most don't. Experiment with your patch and ball combination to find the best combination for the level of accuracy you want. For instance, many use a .490 ball (50 cal rifle) with a 0.015 inch patch, while others like a more looser fit wherein they can start the patched ball down the muzzle with their thumb and finish up with the ramrod. Others use a tighter combination that requires a short starter, or even a mallet, to get the ball into and part way down the muzzle. But experiment to find something that is comfortable for you. There is no rule for a proper ball/patch combination. Just avoid burning holes in your patches (collect a few after firing your gun for inspection). Remember, though, a new rifle will tear your patches for the first 100 or so shots, or until the cut rifling's sharp edges are smoothed off. If holes are burning in the patches, the patch/ball combination is too loose. Tighten it up with thicker patching material. I like Bridgers Best patching. Don't get it or any other brands that are prelubed, as those packages often have sat in distribution with the fibers beginning to deteriorate. There are good lubes on the commercial market, while others use their own concoctions such as animal fats with added bees wax. Patches soaked with saliva also are good for target shooting where you are loading and shooting; not for hunting or trail walks, use an animal or plant grease-based patch lube to avoid rust-rings where the patched ball has sat. If you get lost for a few days when hunting, you can subsist on your patches until rescued. Me?...I have never been lost in these shining mountains but I have been confused for 2 or 3 days at a time.

After a day of shooting, remove your barrel from the stock. Remove the nipple and place the breech end in a pail of cool or tepid (but not hot) water several inches deep. Some add soap or dish detergent, but it is not necessary as black powder fouling readily dissolves in plain water. Use your ramrod with a cleaning jag and patch to pump water in and out of the barrel. Change the water several times or until further pumping a patch no longer shows dirty water. Dry the barrel thoroughly with dry patches and use a bore preservative to protect your bore. Barricade is popular. Don't forget to spray a little into your bolster from the nipple end, and, as on individual suggested, store your re-assembled rifle muzzle down to avoid oil from pooling in the bolster or patent breech. Don't forget to put a cloth under the muzzle when doing so to avoid any matrimonial conflicts.

Don't take your shooting too seriously; remember to always have fun, while being safe.

George
 
Thanks George, some good info here.
I was using the hogdgon triple 7 from bass pro because that's what they had. I used the .490 ball + .020 patch + 70 grains of the FFg because that's what the hogdgon website recommended, so that's what I ordered from trackof the wolf. The ball was really tight going down the barrel though. I had to use the ball end of the short starter to get the bullet seated into the barrel and then the stick part to get it pushed down the six inches or so. Then it took a bit of effort to get the ball the rest of the way down with the ramrod. It was harder on the second shot and almost impossible on the third shot. I ended up having to smack the ball down the barrel with the ramrod a little bit at a time rather than pushing it down with the rod against the ball all the way down. Then the third shot wouldn't fire. I had planned to experiment with different sized balls, patches, etc. I also would love to try some conicals such as the great plains, minie or the buffalo bullet, but this was just a starting point. I was hoping I would have had a little more luck on my first time out though, especially since the only range near me where I can shoot this rifle likes to relieve me of $14 each visit.
I think since my ball and patch combo is so tight, my first order of business should be to try maybe a .015 patch. There's a huge gun show in town this weekend. I'll probably end up buying a variety of stuff to try.
Questions about the swabing between shots. You said it's once down and up? Is that all? Should just be done with a cleaning jag on the end of the ramrod? When I completely soak a cleaning patch at home with solvent it takes quite a bit of force to get it started down the barrel. I can't imagine a patch that was dry or barely damp with some spit or water. May be my cleaning jag is to tight... I bought the one for 50 caliber. Also is the hammer supposed to be down at this point? Or should I have it at half cock with the spent primer removed?
Any comments about the size of the nipple? As I mentioned before I don't know if it's original. Are all #11 nipples the same size as far as their in and out holes? I see there are a variety that you can buy, stainless, brass, blued, etc.
Thanks again
 
Wow thats the first time I have seen or heard of a frontier shooting high out of the box usually its wayyyyy low due to the high front sight post.
 
It's only new to me. I bought it used and the proof mark puts it at 1992. The front sight may have been changed or altered for all I know. It doesn't appear to have been filed but it is scuffed up a bit and some of the finishi is gone here and there. I really need to touch it up with a bit of black enamel or something so I can see it better. I'll take a photo when I get home.
 
Sounds like your cleaning jag is too tight. It should not be that difficult to push down the bore. Nipples do come in different sizes. 777 and other BP subs can be harder to ignite. Magnum caps can help. Just some of the learning process.
 
I was looking for just cci #11 caps, but all they had was winchester #11 magnum caps so that's what I ended up with.

Here's the jag I bought.
jag
Should I order a smaller one or should I turn this one down a bit?
I'll put a micrometer on it when I get home to see what the actual size is.
 
Well since you are just starting out and it seems that by the third shot it is very difficult to ram the ball, I'd do this.
1. Before first shot, at the start of the day's shooting...snap a cap on the nipple and aim the muzzle at some soft sand or a blade of grass. The force of the blast should dimple the sand or move the grass. If it doesn't you have a plugged area.
2. Assuming the sand dimpled or the grass moved- pour your charge and use only a patched round ball. Loading a conical is MUCH HARDER. Seat the ball on the powder and mark the ramrod at that sp
 
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