Flinstones-era matchlock? ID help!

[dwillia29]

Hi everyone -

First post, and I'm SO glad that I discovered this forum.

Even though I'm an avid shooter and own a number of firearms, the entirety of my collection sports serial numbers and most are made primarily of polymer!

As such, my experience with matchlocks -- or any firearm manufactured before, say, 1995 -- is nil.

I performed as much due diligence as possible before posting, and I have a general idea of what it is, but I hope you can help me nail down some specifics, i.e., probable date of manufacture, how long it may have been used, and geographic origin.

Some background: This belonged to my great-aunt (deceased) who came into possession of it in the mid-1980s.

I found it (and a few others I'll post later if you're interested) in the back of a walk-in closet in her house.

It's 55" OAL -- not counting the um, buttstock that was obviously added later. That's the reason I called it a "flinstones" matchlock -- that's the crudest buttstock I've ever seen!

Even so, it's relatively old in and of itself; the nail affixing it to the rifle is handmade and like nothing I've ever seen.

My research lead me to believe that this is a serpentine matchlock, correct?

Based on the unknown (arabic?) proofmark at the business end of the barrel, I'm guessing it's middle eastern in origin as well?

One of the pics shows some frayed material along the barrel that I initially thought was random detritus, (it's filthy, I know) but upon closer examination, I'd swear it's the remains of leather of some sort...?

This piece has really piqued my curiosity; moreso than any of the other rifles I stumbled upon.

Just let me know if you have any questions or requests for addtl. pics, etc. Looking forward to hearing back from all you experts!

Thanks for your help!
David

 

[arquebus]

Actually, to me, it looks more Indian than middle eastern. Interesting find.....would love to see what else you discovered!

 

[dwillia29]

Appreciate your reply Arquebus!

Indian origin hadn't even crossed my mind, but as I'm unfamiliar w/ arabic, farsi, et. al., - and the styles of Indian v. Arabic matchlocks - you very well may be right. (assume you mean the subcontinent; not native american?)

Looking over the pics, it occurred to me that I should provide a couple that show the piece in all it's glory :grin: rather than just a bunch of close-up shots.

What advice would you give someone (read: me) who isn't a collector, but would want this and the other pieces to find their way into the hands of someone who would appreciate them?

I'd love to donate one or more to a museum (my first choice, if they'd have it that is). Then again, maybe it's just a wall-hanger...

Please keep the replies coming!

Thanks again!
David

 

[arquebus]

A surprising number of these Mid. Eastern/Indian matchlocks show up on the internet gun auction sites from time to time. You might check them out; [url] http://gunbroker.com/[/url] &[url] http://auctionarms.com/[/url] plus do a web search for matchlocks & you might be surprised at what else you find. Not sure that there's a great deal of collector interest in this type of arm at present.

As far as the type of matchlock action you have ( & bare in mind I'm no expert, but have owned a couple of Japanese examples), it appears to be a 'Snapping Matchlock'. That is were a spring-loaded serpentine (hammer) & trigger operate via a sear arrangement similar to a modern trigger. The alternate system is where the serpentine & trigger are a solid piece with a pivot point, & the lower half acts as a 'trigger'.

 

This is definitely from India, the so called proof mark is actually the mark of Shiva, so this is Hindi, not Arabic or Muslim. Probably from Northern India.

CP

 

[benvenuto]

Standard Indian Torador or matchlock gun,could be from anytime from 1700-1850, nicely decorated but awful condition. Would benefit greatly from professional restoration... god only knows why they did that to the butt though! :hmm:

 

[dwillia29]

Thanks for all your replies, very much appreciated!

Arquebus - I don't believe it's a "snapping" matchlock; rather it appears to be a solid piece w/ a single pivot point as you described.

I examined the action (if you can call it that) with a surefire high-lumen flashlight, and I didn't see anything that would indicate the past presence of even a somewhat modern-ish sear/spring. The trigger group couldn't be any more rudimentary.

Again, I certainly could be wrong... What feature(s) gave you the idea that it was a snapping matchlock?

Claypipe - thank you for positively identifying the proofmark as Indian! Now I know where it originated, which certainly helps satiate my curiosity.

Benvenuto - Is it possible that it could date even earlier than 1700? The reason I ask is twofold:

1) It appears that there has been quite a bit of restorative work performed in the past (not counting the buttstock; whoever did that deserved to reincarnated as a slug). Rather, there are decorative pieces that seem to have been added later to replace broken/missing pieces.

They're actually four (4) different kinds of handmade decorative buttons (?), and I don't think they were added at the same time. It looks as though -- in each case -- someone attempted to recreate the original (or what they thought was the original) decorative pieces.

I understand that anything handmade isn't going to be uniform, but they're really not the same even though at first glance they appear so.

2) It just "seems" pre-1700. How's that for scientific? :wink: Actually, all the rework gave me that impression plus the fact that the action was so basic... My (admittedly) uneducated guess was that it was 16th, possibly even 15th century? Is that possible or highly unlikely?

Thanks again for all your help! I think that I'll list it on gunbroker after carefully cleaining it with a soft brush for a bit. The condition is awful, but not as awful as it appears in the photos. A little TLC should go a long way.

The rest of the guns are flinlock/percussion, so I'll be posting them in those respective sub-forums shortly if you want to check them out. Maybe there is a gem among them...?

Again, can't thank you folks enough. I defintely came to the right place!

David

 

[ChrisPer]

These kind of guns were still in use in remote areas (eg Saharan Africa) in the late 19th century. Modern arms were to an extent monopolised by the powers that be in those places. I can't date it myself, but it looks a lot older than 1900.

What is the butt problem? It looks a bit like someone put it in a bucket and cast concrete around it to use it as a lampstand.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Some of these matchlocks were made with a butt stock shape like this. Lord knows why but someone must have had a reason. Maybe it balanced out a heavy barrel.

 

[benvenuto]

Look, it could date earlier but without more markings I dont think we'll ever know. Unless you want to slice off part of the stock for a dendochronoligist to look at
i was just reading that this type of gun was copied from turkish guns, generally the indian copies are lower quality than the turkish or persian models. The butt should be pentagonal in section, if it isn't then it is from south india

 

[arilar]

Regards,
ARILAR :wink:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Arilar- any thoughts on the purpose of the butt stock configuration? It does seem an unusual choice.

 

[GunneyG]

An early version of a recoil pad?

 

[arilar]

Arilar- any thoughts on the purpose of the butt stock configuration? It does seem an unusual choice.

Dont know but maybe for balance....or support when loading and soft surface on ground (desert-sand ,mud et.c.)...or just supposed to be fancy??
Regards,
ARILAR :grin:

 

[WRussell]

Maybe to shoot from the hip while riding a camel?

 

[dwillia29]

Hi everyone --

Again, I definitely came to the right place, thanks!

I went from knowing next to nothing about this piece to learning quite a lot. Much more than I expected, you folks really know your stuff.

The theory that the buttstock (or crude replacement in this case) was designed to prevent the matchlock from sinking into the sand was really creative -- and very plausible, imho.

The "shoot from the hip" theory makes me distinctly nervous though. I reside in a state where so-called "assault weapons" are heavily regulated and I don't think this feature would be deemed to have any sporting purpose...

(^^that's a joke^^) :grin:

Arilar - do you mind if I ask what book you scanned that page from? It appears to me that, more than likely, this matchlock had a similar appearance at one time... A real shame. Still, I'd love to find a copy of the book if it's still in print to help me ID some of the other finds.

Speaking of which, I've been meaning to post the other finds. None are matchlocks, but if you're interested, I'm going to post some pics of a percussion rifle in that subforum. Will definitely have it up by tomorrow.

Guys, thanks again, you've been great!

David

 

[dwillia29]

Hi everyone,

I've been remiss about posting the rest of my great-aunt's collection on the forum, but exhibit #2, a percussion rifle, is in that subforum now.

More to come... :thumbsup:

Rather than reposting the above pics, I opted to resurrect this thread; specifically to inquire about restoration.

I'm aware that I could send it off for a professional job, but I just don't have the interest in this piece to spend big $... Especially when the rifle is probably worth only whatever sentimental value I have in it (read: very little).

Still, it's been neglected for centuries and is only going to degrade further if nothing is done.

My conscience won't allow that to happen -- even if it does end up costing me.

What do you think... Keep the crude, hand-carved buttstock and try to smooth it out/decorate or just remove it altogether?

Any inexpensive wood/metal treatments that I might find at Brownell's or other shop?

Essentially, I'd like to "improve" it's overall condition & look somewhat and not have an "Antiques Roadshow" expert in the distant future lament, "If only some amateur hadn't done 'X' and 'X', this would be worth much more...". :wink:

If me mucking it up is an inevitably, I have a great relationship with a very skilled and competent gunsmith. His expertise doesn't lie with antique firearms, but he has the wood & metal working equipment to reproduce just about anything...

Thanks for your help!

-David

 

[ChrisPer]

I am not an expert, but in my opinion the level of restoration you should do is very light and may be done yourself. I would if it were my own:
1. Brush and clean off loose rust and/or dirt.
2. Put a drop of penetrene or similar mineral oil (no silicone) on all metal-metal joints; then a light coat of oil all over the metal surfaces and down the bore.
3. Not dis-assemble, unless there is reason to suspect corrosion in progress under the wood.
4. put a light coat of clear non-silicone antique furniture wax on the wood. Leave the ugly knob as part of it, there is a reason for it we don't know yet.

Store in a clean dry place out of reach of idiots and thieves.

But then, I would get sick of that quickly and say, 'Hey, its mine!' and I would think out the stock pins and want to see how the lock worked... it would be damaged by my interest, and I would be very happy when I put it back together.

 

[dwillia29]

Chris -

Thanks for your reply.

Your "non-expert" opinion sounds pretty good to me, moreso because you instruct what "not" to do, e.g., no silicone-based products.

That's the kind of thing I need to know!

Don't worry, I have no intention (or even if I did, the know-how) of disassembling the matchlock. Perhaps you'd "damage" it; I'd probably destroy it! :wink:

The most I'll do is spray the inside of the action with compressed air to clear out all the cobwebs.

Of course, I'll also follow your recommendations. Much appreciated.

All I hope to do is halt the degradation of the gun so -- long after I'm gone -- some yet to be born person or relative, if interested, will have the opportunity to restore/disassemble/investigate provenance/etc.

As stated previously, it's been grossly neglected for years -- that stops now.

Thanks again!
David