Flint vs Cap

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I caught a piece of a cap in the cheek once.

Now, let me say I've never dropped my priming flask in the snow but I have dropped probably 200 odd caps with numb fingers while bunny and grouse hunting. Had MANY caps that didn't fire and jambed the nipple full of compound (the foil layered Remingtons don't do this).

All told, either system needs a bit of care and attention and both benefit from a waxed cow's knee in the rain or snow.
 
CoyoteJoe said:
Actually no, in 50+ years of muzzleloading I've never seen any of those things happen.

Me neither in 40 years so I hope the next 10 are the same! :grin:
 
I never had a “jammed” nipple but I can relate to you about the dropped caps! Not only in snow either but that is a thing of the past since Ted Cash.
 
My wife is left handed I let her shoot my Right handed GPR 54 precussion once.
That was all it took I had to pick all kinds of little pieces of brass out of her arm.

My son shot my TC 50 Flint Lock once sitting on the bench next to his girlfriend.
He pulled the trigger hit the bullseye she screamed because the flash from the touch hole burnt her face.

I felt bad I should have known better stuff happens in a hurry sometimes.

Caps are hard to get out of a little round tin when it is below zero out side and
a big buck just stepped into view after you had shot a nice doe.
 
"My son shot my TC 50 Flint Lock once sitting on the bench next to his girlfriend.
He pulled the trigger hit the bullseye she screamed because the flash from the touch hole burnt her face."

According to one member here, couldn't have happened. He rigged up something that held a piece of paper just inches from his touch hole. Nothing happened to the paper. I believe you and I feel sorry for the young lady. I also hope the young lady forgave your son.
 
When I was shooting percussion rifle (switched to flint not long after getting into muzzleloading) I had good luck with those regular #11 Rem caps. I gave them to my fiancee, who uses them in her pistol and has had good luck with them too so far (knock wood).
 
Cory:

As you read the answers, keep in mind that your question is sorta like walking into a Vintage Chevy Club and asking, "What are the benefits of driving a Chevy over driving a Ford?"

I own and shoot both flintlocks and percussion lock rifles and IMO both styles have good and bad things about them.

If you are wanting the fastest most dependable, weather resistant muzzleloader, IMO the Percussion wins.

If you are wanting the style that contributed the most to our nations history and gives the greatest satisfaction of shooting it and owning it, IMO the Flintlock wins.
 
CoyoteJoe said:
Actually no, in 50+ years of muzzleloading I've never seen any of those things happen.

I had all of them happen in the first 5.
A friend permanently converted to flint after a Bill large Hawken breech spit out a nipple and he carried black spots from the fouling imbedded in his nose until he died. The flash channels were not made properly and put a lot of pressure on the base of the nipple. I am sure cold rolled steel was a factor but this is supposition.

The drum I broke off was not supported right, but then many originals are not either but they are not made from modern, brittle, cold rolled steel so they don't break from the repeated hammerings.
The nipple blew out of a made in Belgium "Dixie GW Squirrel Rifle" circa 1967-68. The cap fragments came from a drum and nipple gun.
This all took place in my teens.
They have a happened to others and continue to happen for the same reasons.
I also had a flintlock vent liner start to gas cut the threads after several years of use. This was in a rifle I built circa late 1968. One of the "removable" liners probably from DG Works. This taught me not to use removable liners.
I have an English style rifle I built a Nock patent breech for. I pulled the clean out one day (about 4-5 years ago) and found and internal crack in the store bought vent liner. I make by my own now.
All these things were learning experiences and there are things I do not do now or do not tolerate.
I don't worry about percussion guns with properly designed breeches. But the D&N does not fall into this category. Many current manufacture MLs with "patent" breeches do not either since the nipple is higher than the fence that is supposed to protect the shooter.
I still will not stand on the lock side of a D&N gun after its been loaded and capped.


Dan
 
I prefer the percussion though it's less authentic, it's easier to use, much less sensitive to the Humidity (long fire) and direct start.

it depends on the conditions of use,if it's rain during all the day when you are outside, of course
 
To add another dimension to the discussion...while its true nobody would ever confuse me with a 'purist'...I do like the extra challenge of learning to hunt year round under all weather conditions with a Flintlock like the settlers had to.

Both this past Saturday morning and again late yesterday afternoon I deer hunted in a steady moderate rain for a few hours each time...left the house knowing it was raining...confident from learning to manage a Flintlock under those conditions and have loose dry Goex 4F in the pan when its time to take a shot...very satisfying...one of the most rewarding deer I've taken was a good 8 pointer year before last after sitting in rain for 2.5 hours.
 
The good old ford vs everything debate. I'm a old school ford guy, never intend to part with my 74' ranger hi boy. Compared to the trucks of today nothing beats it, even fords own. And I think it's safe to say that firing any type of weapon is potentially dangerous. Gun or bow, anything could happen, its the risk we take to enjoy shooting. I'm not the type to bash anything with out trying it, so I'm still going to try out a flint. I like the fact that the possibly slower ignition, will only cause me to become a better shot.



"If you can't hit what you're shooting at, might as well pick up knitting"
 
"Slower ignition"??!?!? I've had experienced BP shooters come up and ask me how did I get a cartridge gun to look like a flintlock! It's all in knowing your gun. :haha:
 
If you are actually getting slower ignition that you can HEAR, you have problems either with lock design, Lock function, loading and cleaning techniques, OR ALL THREE. THERE IS a learning curve you have to climb to learn how to shoot flintlocks. I know of no shortcuts for that climb.

A Tuned flintlock will fire every bit as fast as any percussion lock, unless you are using a computer to measure differences.

Others may not agree with my assertion, but I have had men at my club want to know when I began shooting percussion again, when they heard me shooting my flintlock. These have been experienced MLing shooters in their own right, who insisted on watching how I loaded and primed my rifle before shooting it. They hung around watching the gun fire, too.

Most walked away mumbling about getting a flintlock for themselves to shoot! :shocked2: :grin: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
But, if you are using a computer to measure the differences between a Percussion and a Flintlock, the Percussion fires faster. Pletch has proven this with his computer measurements.

While the Flintlock is just lighting the pans priming powder, the Percussion is firing and sending its projectile down the barrel.


Admittedly, the difference is small enough that the human eyes and ears can't detect it but the Percussion is the faster system.
 
Flintlocks are best :v . Flint technology lasted more than 250 years. Caps were just a minor fad and lasted maybe 30 years until folks passed the gestalt of "progress". The fad has come around again but won't last. You can't beat a good, reliable flintlock. :thumbsup:
 
If the lock is tuned properly, the priming powder is ignited Before the cock stops its "Fall". A percussion hammer cannot fire anything until its "fall" stops.

Then, with a flintlock, its up to how you load the powder in the barrel, what kind of Vent shape the gun has, and whether you open a hole into the powder charge itself so that the heat of the burning prime will ignite the main powder charge, in the barrel, quickly.

The issue of " faster" is all wound up in what part of the lock is doing what, and how fast. Comparing Flintlocks to percussion locks is a bit of "Apples vs. Oranges", because of the engineering of the two separate systems. Many of the tests done are restrained by the equipment used, which is often the result of earlier creations used to measure Cartridge guns.

About the only way I have figured out how to give a fair test to flintlock ignition is to use time-lapse photography, with a filter, so that the flash does not overexpose the light from burning the priming powder. Even then, you need to have two cameras working, one at 90 degrees to the side of the pan/barrel, and one overhead, so that you can see the first "Fire" exiting the TH when the main powder charge ignites. I don't know anyone with that kind of equipment, and its outside my possible budget to do myself.

The men who have watched my flintlock fire repeatedly have all said that my gun is firing before the cock stops it movement( fall). Since I am holding and shooting the rifle, I can't see what they see. The first guy who said this to me- well, I just chalked it up to his kindness, and lack of experience with flintlocks. When the next several men observed the same thing, I began to wonder if it might be true. Over the years, I have heard enough similar comments- the experienced flintlock shooters claim it must be due to how my frizzen pops open "sooner"( in their opinion, than their own gun locks do) to let the sparks be thrown down into the pan, long before the cock stops its " fall".

Since I can't shoot my gun, and watch everything the lock does at the same time, I can't comment further.

However, when I tuned my brother's flintlock and he began shooting it down at the Tallahassee Rifle and Pistol Club, he began getting similar comments from other experienced shooters. Phil Quaglino looked at the lock, smiled, and asked him who tuned the lock for him. Pete was kind enough to call me and tell me about that.

Oh, I didn't invent the wheel. I spent a lot of time- A LOT OF TIME--- observing the bench rest rifle flintlock shooters at Friendship one day. I noticed--- could not help but notice!--- That several of the guns had NO FRIZZEN SPRINGS in place on the guns. Being a lawyer :shocked2: , and completely at ease :grin: :v ASKING STUPID QUESTIONS, I asked some of the shooters WHY their guns had no frizzen springs on them.

Then I watched what happened when their guns fired, observing how the sparks were created, from which part of the frizzen's face, and how quickly the frizzen opened up to allow the sparks to Be THROWN- not dribbled down ---- into the pan. I could not help but notice that these guns ignited the priming powder much faster than most standard flintlock rifles do with a heavy frizzen spring in place.

The rest was simply a process of doing " reverse engineering", which I have talked about here on the forums before.

You start with how to get the priming powder lit( ignited) the fastest, and work back from there- removing anything that impedes achieving that goal. Once you get the priming powder lit, you try different ways to get that heat inside the barrel faster, and Wah Lahhh! The gun fires faster. :v
 
This is the latest batch of high speed videos we did at friendship in 2009:

Link

The camera shows what the human eye cannot see. So far I have slow motion video of 80+ locks. We have yet to see a lock ignite a pan before the flint edge comes to rest.

Regards,
Pletch
 
I have had one really slow percussion gun always heard the cap pop. Probably ball park for a good flintlock, by ear anyway.
I built a percussion pistol some years back that has a lock time as good as any 1911 Colt, at least by ear. Short hammer fall and it was noticeably fast.
Given all the things that have to occur with a flintlock, make the sparks, sparks to the pan. spark ignites the powder, powder propagates flame, temp gets high enough to light main charge, its simply impossible for flint gun to be as fast as a properly made percussion with its far simpler ignition cycle.
Larry's videos illustrate the FL ignition cycle very well and he has timed some very fast locks.

Dan
 
Being involved in music education as much as I am and for as long as I have been, I can testify to the ability of the human ear to be 'confused' with what it hears. I suspect this is what you and your friends think you/they are hearing. The times Mr. Pletcher got are actually quite large in favor of the cap lock. Certainly more than the difference between 4f and 2f powder as a prime, which 'my ears' can tell the difference.
 
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