Flintlock musket safety?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Hello all!

So if someone wanted to get a repro or original military flintlock musket, and make authentic paper cartridges for it, AND wanted to load the "original" way, how safe would that be?

Of course, when loading the military flintlock the user puts the gun on half **** and uses some of the powder from the cartridge to prime the pan. Then, he dumps the rest of the powder and stuff the ball and paper down the bore, ramming it home with the ramrod.

While all of this is happening, the gun is at half **** and the pan is full of powder!! :shocked2:

So, it seems to me that getting one of these guns and loading it in the historical military manner with paper cartridges and a cartridge box, would be wholly unsafe. At any time when the hands are in front of the muzzle, the half **** notch could break or slip, sending the flint down to the pan and possibly discharging the musket. I would imagine the shooter would be crippled for life from this. This is also one of the reasons why I am considering skipping a flintlock musket and instead going with an percussion smoothbore musket like the U.S. Springfield M1842.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this everyone. Thanks!

 

[azmntman]

One could always get the flintlock and load it however the heck one wanted to load it (say prime last :idunno: After all no more 16th century drill sgts will be hollering atcha and those here that squeal come with a delete button?

Get what ya want and shoot and load how ya want. Just clean EXACTLY like me and you be fine. :rotf:

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Well I would be most interested in loading the traditional way, with paper cartridges. If this is unsafe, perhaps a percussion musket would be better for me.

 

[Trot]

Just load with the paper cartridges but prime last. Not a big deal to make a small change for a big safety improvement.

 

[ohio ramrod]

There is a reason many people call the half **** position "safety". It is not a true safety but close to it. :idunno:

 

[kurts]

the military knew the possible loss in loading that way but did not care, the man did not count just that the rate of fire could be kept up.

 

[coloradoclyde]

You could always use a frizzen/hamerstall as insurance....

 

[Mercian]

You could always use a frizzen/hamerstall as insurance....

Just what I was going to suggest. :thumbsup: I suppose not exactly historically correct, however, if you want to load in a historically correct way but are worried about safety, got to be just about the only way to put your mind at rest.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Very interesting, I would like to learn more about this if possible. Thank you!

 

[Mercian]

Just google Frizzen Cover and images which are self explanatory will appear.
However I must point out I'm not giving any guaranty as to it's being completely safe.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

historically authentic was the safest method they had at their means to load and operate a rifle. like many methods, they were an evolution of design and the more dangerous methods got phased out. safe compared to options available today? probably not as, but as safe as they could make it for their time.

 

[JohnN]

Frizzen stalls were historically correct, but most ranges I have been to require that you prime at the line after loading.

 

[The O'Dea]

Lads,
:bull: Leather stalls are not historically correct! If you wish to load you flintlock musket the historically correct way, I will send you the correct loading instructions from my copy of Scott's Infantry Tactics. "Cast about".
I have been shooting my muskets for more years than I can remember. I will also supply you with loading information for the ball, and buck 'n ball round.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

 

[Artificer]

Earl,

First of all "Hammer Stalls" or Leather Frizzen Covers absolutely are HCPC. Here is plenty of documentation for both American and British use. The question comes up every so often and that's why I started a thread on it.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/294696/

The Military HAD to Prime the pan first because the powder for the pan had to come from the paper cartridge, as most times they did not have a separate powder horn or flask to prime the pan. This was not because they did not care about the soldiers safety, but rather what had to be done in battle for the technology they had. The modern military ALSO has to do things in battle we would not consider safe. This does not mean you HAVE to load that way, though.

I know folks who make up paper cartridges and prime the pan with a small horn or flask after the barrel is loaded. I fired thousands of live rounds in competition in the 70's out of my Navy Arms Brown Bess Carbine and NEVER primed the pan before loading the barrel. That is the safer way to load a flintlock musket for target shooting or hunting AND is how civilians did it with their smoothbore guns in the original period.

The military began priming after loading the barrel once the percussion cap became available and the cap was not tied up in those paper cartridges. Caps were carried in a separate small pouch/box on the waist belt.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Oh, it seems American soldiers had stopped using hammer stalls/frizzen covers by or during the Mexican War according to the research done by Irish Mick. This does not mean they were not used prior to that time period, though.

Gus

 

[The O'Dea]

:bull: With all due respect sir,I suggest that you get yourself a copy of Scott's, and learn the meaning of..............."Cast about". My War of 1812 manual uses a slightly different motion for loading. There is however, no mention of the hammer stall etc. I have also gone through all of the QM issues,and Ordnance Dept inventories for the various Ordn. stores, and Ordn.depots, and no where is the leather hammer stall listed as an item of issue.
I will be more than happy to make a copy of Pt. 1
of my copy of the Infantry Tactics for a small price. One can learn a lot from these old manuals.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory


-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

 

[tenngun]

Loading a primed gun is not safe. Standing shoulder to shoulder with an enemy shooting at you is even less safe. Priming first will ba just a little practice to get to four shots a min. Faster if you work at it. I tried it with a bess and my fusil de chase. Won't try it again, can you do it....yes and may never have a problem, but only you can decide if it's worth the risk, it ain't for me.
Nobody will give you a foot of steel if it takes you 20 or 30 seconds to load.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks, I managed to find it online for free though. I will read it thoroughly.

I may still go with a Model 1842 percussion musket if it means I can reload "as the boys did".

 

[Khufu]

I have a '66 Charlville, been loading it that way for years. I can not say this about all muskets, but when mine is in half ****, there is no chance of sparking like a siler or l&r lock the main spring does not get stiff enough to move the frizzen till you approach full ****. to spark it needs to be back nearly a half inch past half **** and then the frizzen only opens half way. it only properly operates, and reliably fires at full **** and the half **** notch is pretty stout. chances of it firing while loading while on half **** are a whole lot slimmer that being killed by a drunk driver on the way to the range.

 

[Artificer]

I am well aware of differences in the Command "Cast about" for FIW through War of 1812, having studied the different time period manuals. However, just because Hammer Stalls are not mentioned in the manuals on the orders to load and fire, does not mean Hammer Stalls were not used at least through the War of 1812 and possibly if not probably beyond, at least for some duties.

The use of hammer stalls were what today we would call "operational uses," rather than Drill Manual orders to load and fire.

The main (if not only) times that Hammer Stalls were needed was when the troops had loaded muskets and were moving, marching or running; as I'm sure you would agree. Thus, the documentation for the use of Hammer Stalls almost always refers to their use by Sentries or those on Guard Duty. Generally, it was not the custom to load muskets until they were lined up and ready to fire in a battle. However, Sentries usually had loaded muskets during war time, though they may have only had bayonets affixed in normal garrison Sentry Duty. So that was the time the use of Hammer Stalls became important, especially at night. Still there is one quote where British Soldiers were ordered to keep their Hammer Stalls affixed UNLESS on Sentry Duty, when they were to take them off.

Bottom line, if the soldiers were NEVER to have loaded muskets and move, march or run; then there was no need of Hammer Stalls and no reason to spend money on acquiring and supplying them to the troops.

Gus