Flintlock musket safety?

[Khufu]

It's the origin of ' going off half cocked'.

the origin of half cocked is from percussion guns as this was a new thing. Most of us if not all carry our flintlocks primed while hunting. I have NEVER had an AD nor has anyone I know or heard about, and some people have a rough time using a pencil without hurting themselves. nervous nellies are responsible for such STUPID innovations like tang safeties on lever guns.
the geometry of a properly fit frizzen, particularly the lobe that engauges the frizzen spring resists opening and changing angle with the **** swing making sparking near impossible, and the frizzen remaining closed protects the prime. any accident I have heard of, not actually seen, came from someone, usually wearing gloves with finger inside the guard, slipping durring the act of cocking and dropping the ****. if iys so unsafe to handle a primed weapon perhaps while you are hunting you should have a stall in place and remove it only when the weapon is cocked and aimed. as there are people who shoot themselves while cleaning a weapon, I am sure there is a way for the extreamely stupid to hurt them selves performing any daily task we all take for granted as simple and safe. most people I have met, with rare exceptions, that shoot flintlocks are inteligent and capable people. most of the walking ****ietraps that shoot muzzleloaders that I have run across use inlines.

 

[Artificer]

With real respect, the term "going off half cocked" did not come from percussion guns, but flintlocks as already mentioned. The original terminology for what is called a hammer on a percussion gun - was known for many decades before that as the "****" on a flintlock. It has often been suggested it got that name from looking like a **** or Rooster pecking the ground - though I do not have period documentation for that. I guess they did not feel it adequate to call it a "Hen." :wink: :haha: So, when the sear holds the **** in the "Half ****" position for some safety when loading and when it slips off for whatever reason and the gun has a AD from mechanical problems or a ND from operator error - it "goes off half cocked."

Actually there was also a "Hammer" in the original terminology of Flintlocks, but today we call that a "Frizzen." Oh, BTW, another common name in the original Flintlock period for the Hammer/Frizzen was the "Steel."

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I think we can all agree that hamerstalls were used but may not have been universally issued.

While pretty good documentation exists that British Regulars were universally issued them in the late 1740's/early 1750's, I am not sure that even British American Provincials were issued them during that war, let alone the New "American" Armed Forces in the AWI. This is why there are quotes about having to make them for deer hide or other materials.

British Soldiers were issued the minimum leather gear with muskets and hand fitted bayonets from the Tower, Dublin Castle or Portsmouth Ordnance Board. That meant a waist belt, sling, cartridge box (belly box), and bayonet scabbard. Their Regimental CO's provided the following items out of funds issued to them by the British Government;
I.E. Cartridge Pouches, Hammer Stalls, swords and scabbards, etc.

Like their British Counterparts, it was up to Regimental or lower Commanders in the American Armies to provide hammer stalls - as best as I can speculate from documentation. So it is quite possible it never was a "Universally Issued Item," though I have seen documentation they were used in the War of 1812. This would be similar to "consumable/expendable" items in the modern military.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Sorry, I meant to add this above:

Actually there was also a "Hammer" in the original terminology of Flintlocks, but today we call that a "Frizzen." This is why the leather cover for what we call the frizzen to have originally been called a "Hammer Stall," "Hammer Cap" or "Hammer Slat" in the period.

Gus

 

[Ray-Vigo]

My comments are on range-based target practice.

For sustained target practice, demonstration, or firing, I 'prime at the line' after charging the bore at the loading bench. Our range requires that, and it is safer than priming first.

I can see doing the 'prime first' or the military paper cartridge type load for a one-off demonstration, just to demonstrate the process to bystanders at the range who are interested. I would not do it for sustained fire or target shooting at the range. If your gun is mechanically fine, then the likelihood of accidental firing is quite small. Nevertheless, it is an unnecessary risk at the range compared to 'prime at the line'. It only takes one failure to cause nasty injury, so I like to reduce any unnecessary risk. There are certain inherent risks to using a muzzle loader, but I don't think 'prime first' is one of them at the range.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Having never owned a flintlock (but have one ordered) I wonder if the flint striking the frizzen at half **** would generate enough force to cause sparks. You flinter people would know.

I've tried firing mine from half **** and it either stops when it hits the frizzen or has insufficient force to spark...
But it could happen.....all it really takes is one spark.....

 

[Khufu]

we still use the term half cocked today, though a 1873 colt never had a flint ignition it is loaded by putting in in half **** to release the bolt so the cylinder rotates freely, same for percussion revolvers, the half **** also is what the term was for the safety notch on percussion guns (likely a carry over from the flint era). as rare as a firing of an uncocked flintlock is, as in never, and as common as it is with percussion guns, safety notch wears down, it is reasonable to conclude that no term is needed till the problem exists, and is actually common enough that someone actually has heard of it happening. original percussion caps were made with Mercury Fulminate, conciderably more shock sensitive than todays lead azide. a discharge is likely with only gently hitting the cap with the hammer. we still call the flight controls on an airplane "The Stick" when in fact they are almost universally a wheel now we hang on to old terms for things, my grandfather refered to my trousers as "Britches", a term for Breeches, an obsolete male garment (that some of us still wear because we are cool enough to pull it off). so I respectfully disagree with you.

 

[Artificer]

we still use the term half cocked today, though a 1873 colt never had a flint ignition it is loaded by putting in in half **** to release the bolt so the cylinder rotates freely, same for percussion revolvers, the half **** also is what the term was for the safety notch on percussion guns (likely a carry over from the flint era) .

Agreed, the term “going off half cocked” started in Flintlock Era and actually remained in Military Usage until the 1980’s when we still had the M1911A1 Pistol with a hammer that also had a half **** notch. When that notch was worn/broken and/or the sear in the same condition, they could go off “half cocked.”

as rare as a firing of an uncocked flintlock is, as in never, and as common as it is with percussion guns, safety notch wears down, it is reasonable to conclude that no term is needed till the problem exists, and is actually common enough that someone actually has heard of it happening. so I respectfully disagree with you.

With respect, period documentation and modern experience with Original M1816/22/30/40 U.S. Flintlock muskets, Original British Land Pattern (Brown Bess) Flint Muskets and reproductions of the above, show a far different story. Original Military Flintlocks with their FAR stronger main springs (and to a lesser extent reproduction Military Mainsprings that are not quite as strong) than most civilian locks ”“ can and still do go off at “half ****” when the half **** notch is worn/damaged. Now, I am not suggesting every time of course, but it can happen half the time and to a greater degree 25% down to 20% of the time. Even only a “One in Five Chance” of it happening is too much of a chance for safety.

Original 18th century British Ordnance Supply lists showed they sent over replacement Tumblers on the order of at least 1 for every 20 Muskets issued, if not 1 for every 10 Muskets issued - for both the FIW and the AWI. The half **** notches were/are MUCH more prone to damage on the Tumblers than the full **** notches. Part of the reason for this is there were no “fly’s” in the tumblers on the overwhelming majority of Flintlock Military Locks. With no fly in the tumbler, IF the Soldier/shooter does not keep constant pressure on the trigger ”“ the nose of the sear can/will damage the half **** notch and itself, because it is not pulled back far enough to clear the half **** notch as it rotates past the nose of the sear.

Now, I agree “going off half-cocked” is MORE likely to happen with a Percussion Military Musket than a Flintlock Military Musket because as you stated, the percussion cap is more likely to go off when the Hammer slips off the half **** notch.

So, from both original period documentation and many years of working on both Original and Reproduction Military Flintlocks and Military Percussion locks, I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Gus

 

[Khufu]

while I believe that tumblers were broken, either by dropping while half cocked, or a soldier, in the heat of a skirmish thought he had cocked his musket, and pulled the trigger so hard that the tumbler broke, or by a light pull had the **** falling from full **** get caught in the half **** notch and break it, I do not believe any of them fired from half ****. I just filled the pan on my '66 Charleville and dropped the hammer 100 times from half **** and the frizzen never moved. I then started pulling it past half **** and dropping it, still no spark. a 1/4" past half **** it moved the frizzen maybe a 1/8" and no spark. I stopped because I chipped the flint and I hate renapping them. I pulled it to full **** and fired it, and the prime ignited. Though I can not say difinitively that all muskets will act in this mannor, I know that my mainspring is VERY stout and if it were any stronger I would need leverage to **** it. the geometry of my Charleville lock makes sparking at half **** impossible, it also requires the full **** to be real far back from half ****, a safety likely engineered into military locks, at least Charleville locks, as I have never owned, or experimented with a Bess. I know for certain that it is safe to load my musket in the traditional way with paper cartridges. I would however, never load my Lancaster school flintlock, or my .32 squirrel rifle with the pan primed as the full **** is very close to the half ****.

 

[Artificer]

I can not speak to Original French Muskets, as I have never worked on them - except on our own M1816/22/30/40 Muskets were all basically French Muskets. It has been about four decades since I owned a Navy Arms Charleville.

IMO, it MAY be possible with a properly functioning Military Flintlock to pull the trigger so hard when the sear is in the half **** that one might break the notch, though more likely the sear nose because it is a far less stout piece of metal. Adrenaline does do strange things to folks in combat.

I actually got the idea of shortening half **** notches down so very little pressure would keep the sear notch out of the way from original U.S. Flintlock and Percussion Muskets. The originals are MUCH better in that internal geometry than many of the reproductions. This and the fact the reproduction parts are normally not as good quality as the originals, means the reproduction sears and tumblers will not stand as much strain/stress as original parts.

Outside of not pulling the trigger with a constant pressure to keep the sear nose out of the way of the half **** notch, another likely scenario to break the half **** notch is dropping the musket on the **** when the **** is in the half **** position. This more from someone who got hit/wounded and dropped the musket and to a far lesser extent a clumsy fumble. However, outside battle and guard duty, the British normally kept hammer stalls on their muskets, so the leather would take up some of the shock damage then and normally kept the "Frizzens" full down when the Muskets were not loaded - which was most of the time even during war. The British were also VERY nasty about holding Soldiers to account for breaking their arms, even if by accident when they only had to pay for the cost of repairs to the musket. IF it seemed it came from neglect or worse, deliberate abuse; they not only had to pay for the repair costs, but also would expect severe flogging and more punishments.

Gus

 

[Mercian]

Frizzen stalls were historically correct, but most ranges I have been to require that you prime at the line after loading.

I failed to word my post adequately. Yes I agree Frizzen stalls are historically correct, what I was suggesting as being incorrect was that an infantryman in a battle situation would not have placed in position and then removed a stall every time he reloaded. Stupid of me to bring that consideration into the discussion as the person who posted the original question, hopefully, won't find himself in that situation.

 

[vulture]

My two cents worth, and that is all it is worth, my firearms are mine and being such I can load and shoot them any way I choose, no matter how dangerous it is, however, under no circumstances do I have the right, freedom yes, right no, a lot of difference there, to use my firearms in anything but the safest manner when I am around other folks, to knowing do so is criminal, and certainly against the laws of God, not getting religious, just saying that each of us has to take into consideration not only the God given rights and privileges of others, but the safety and well being as well. I used to belong to a black powder club in our area and I always felt safe because everyone took responsibility for their own and the safety of every one else, and we always had a number of children running around, we shot out in open country, either in the desert south of us or up in the mountains to the north of us. Having said all of that there was an incident when a flintlock shooter decided to nap the flint mounted in his rifle, no biggy, but the rifle was loaded, not primed, but loaded at the time, he managed to create a spark, using a steel tool, and that one little spark ended up in the touch hole and the rifle discharged sending the ball down through the crowd, it was a miracle that no one was hit. Go out where there is no one around, use your paper cartridge and load the firearm the way you choose, just don't be surprised if you wind up getting hurt, and remember, all the wishing and regretting in the world will not put your hand back together, or remove the scar from your face, or worst scenario, give you back your life. I love my wife and children ( and grandkids ) a great deal and would like to stick around with them for a few more years.

 

[Khufu]

the hand wringing nerbous nellies, see danger in everything except where it really is, loading ANY muzzleloader is, according to the safety police, dangerous because your hands are infront of a charged muzzle, and there could be a glowing ember, and etc. trying to knap a flint while mounted between the **** and jaw, is stupid, and usless, all you will do is break the flint, with the frizzen closed, the prime is covered, and the touchhole as well, minimizing the risk even more than not priming and leaving the frizzen open. I had a moron smoking next to me while I was loading at the Albuquerque Range, I politely asked him to extinguish his cigarette as I was loading with Blackpowder and the contents of my horn would be impressive if accidentally ignighted. he rudely sugested I mind my own business, using colorful metaphores. I informed the RSO after securing all my powder and he had a so what attitude. after explaning the black powder issue and pointing out the wind carrying burnng ash near my powder, he got a different attitude and removed the moron from the range.
loading any muzzle loader has risk, so does walking down the sidewalk any experienced muzzleloading shooter will keep the muzzle up and away from their face, minimally expose their hands while ramming and bring the muzzle too, in a safe mannor. there are idiots everywhere, they drive drunk, they shoot themselves while cleaning a weapon, they place their finger inside the guard before aquiring a sight picture, they point "unloaded" weapons at people, etc. as long as paper cartridges are are used in muskets in good working order, they are as safe as any method of loading, and safer than most.

 

[Rifleman1776]

the rifle discharged sending the ball down through the crowd,

Improper muzzle control. :nono: He should have been sent away from the range at least for the day.

 

[tenngun]

We all have to wiegh out safe vs fun. We all do unsafe stuff, none of us wants to live under a rock hiding from a bogie man.
I often trek alone many times over night in some rough spots in the woods. A minor accident can kill you and the woods is full of traps.
I blow down a barrel after shots, that scares some folks to death. I drive on ozark roads and eat rare hamburgers and sunny side up eggs. I like to grill over a fire. I have smoked a pipe these 40 years. I even get a tan. However I don't skydive, or ride motercycles or snowmobiles. Silly safety rule??? It's the choice I make. I have speed loaded with a primed pan, but to me it's not worth the risk, although it's probably safer then motercycles :haha: