Flintlock not fully striking/closing...any suggestions??

[Larks]

I had really hoped that I’d be posting my finished Baker Rifle rather than begging for more help but, although I thought that I’d had this sorted a while ago, my hammer won’t fully close with the frizzen not fully opening.

Initially the hammer was dragging against the side of the stock and I thought that was the issue, but after shaving that back and refinishing the stock I’m still having problems.



The frizzen is somewhat stiff and I wonder if that is what is stopping it from behaving as it should? There doesn’t seem to be anything binding it so I wonder if the frizzen spring is a little too strong and, if that could be the case, can it be lightened up somehow? ie by perhaps thinning it out a little somewhere? Or is that a foolish idea?

I am getting a little spark but am hoping that might be more effective once I get the action working properly, otherwise I’ll have another crack at case hardening it again.

I have tried flipping the flint up the other way and I swapped a lead flint wrap for the leather to get the flint sitting further back hard against the jaw screw.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

It looks like the feather spring might be a little too stiff. It also looks like the cock might not be moving as fast as it should.

I have sent several flint locks to Brad at Cabin Creek for repair/tuning and have not been disappointed. He comes well recommended.

 

[Larks]

It looks like the feather spring might be a little too stiff. It also looks like the cock might not be moving as fast as it should.

I have sent several flint locks to Brad at Cabin Creek for repair/tuning and have not been disappointed. He comes well recommended.

Thanks Dusty, I can’t see anything binding in the hammer or its workings and I’ve polished and case hardened everything per The Rifle Shoppe directions. I could rework the hammer spring again though - it seems quite strong in that the hammer takes some pleasing effort to pull back but does that equate to a good spring?

Is there a correct or proven way to ease up the stiffness on the frizzen spring?

Also thanks for the recommendation regarding Brad but unfortunately I’m in Australia

 

[pacanis]

Just to rule some things out, with the frizzen spring removed, does the frizzen move easily from closed to open? Does it bind anywhere?

With everything in place, does the frizzen seem to open harder than it should? Do you have other flintlocks to compare to? Maybe try polishing the top of the spring and the nub(?) on the frizzen where they interact. I just put a Lyman frizzen on a TC and it needed fit. It also needed some material removed/polished where that nub puts pressure on the spring to keep the frizzen closed.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Oh sorry, I am just now seeing your location.

I'm fairly sure the 'correct' way to do it would be by tempering the spring to the desired springy-ness, but, I have never done this. Hopefully one of our resident spring experts will reply.

You haven't seen this guy running around your shop have you? Lots of havoc when he's around.

I second what @pacanis says...

With the lock disassembled down to only the cock, tumbler, bridle, and frizzen, do they open/close/swing from stop to stop--under their own weight-- when you tilt the lock plate end to end?

 

[PathfinderNC]

A longer flint may help, or set it further forward. It looks like it’s striking at or below the lower half of. the frizzen face. (You can experiment with a piece of wood as a ‘flint’ and see what it will do.)
You can ship from Australia to the USA if necessary for a qualified professional can make your lock function perfectly, right?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Just to rule some things out, with the frizzen spring removed, does the frizzen move easily from closed to open? Does it bind anywhere?

With everything in place, does the frizzen seem to open harder than it should? Do you have other flintlocks to compare to? Maybe try polishing the top of the spring and the nub(?) on the frizzen where they interact. I just put a Lyman frizzen on a TC and it needed fit. It also needed some material removed/polished where that nub puts pressure on the spring to keep the frizzen closed.

YES before you mess with spring strength and temper, be sure it's a spring problem and that the problem is the spring and not the frizzen-cam rubbing on the spring. I've taken a lot of emory paper, and smooth sharpening stones to factory frizzen springs and frizzen cams, and had a lot of success just smoothing and polishing. ALSO the sides of the frizzen where it pivots in the lock, the metal on in inside of the frizzen bridle, and the side of the frizzen spring where it is against the lock might also do well with a little polishing.

LD

 

[dave_person]

I had really hoped that I’d be posting my finished Baker Rifle rather than begging for more help but, although I thought that I’d had this sorted a while ago, my hammer won’t fully close with the frizzen not fully opening.

Initially the hammer was dragging against the side of the stock and I thought that was the issue, but after shaving that back and refinishing the stock I’m still having problems.



The frizzen is somewhat stiff and I wonder if that is what is stopping it from behaving as it should? There doesn’t seem to be anything binding it so I wonder if the frizzen spring is a little too strong and, if that could be the case, can it be lightened up somehow? ie by perhaps thinning it out a little somewhere? Or is that a foolish idea?

I am getting a little spark but am hoping that might be more effective once I get the action working properly, otherwise I’ll have another crack at case hardening it again.

I have tried flipping the flint up the other way and I swapped a lead flint wrap for the leather to get the flint sitting further back hard against the jaw screw.

Hi Larks,
Your lock just needs some tweaking. I recommend you turn the flint over bevel down so it will strike higher. I suspect the main problem is the feather spring is either too strong or the toe of the frizzen needs to be ground a bit to reduce the pressure. If you have a trigger pull scale or a hand held luggage scale, try measuring the force needed to pull the cock back from rest to full. Hopefully, it is about 10-11 lbs. Then measure the force to pull the frizzen open. Hopefully it is no more than 40-50% of the force needed to cock the lock. Ideally, it should be 30-40%. Next, the toe of the frizzen may need to be ground such that the frizzen snaps open when raised about 30-40 degrees above the pan. Here is an example showing the grind angle.

I used to grind that angle flat but I've gotten smarter over the years and now round over the the flat. Also, keep in mind, the Baker lock is a relatively short throw lock so the mainspring must be very strong. Good luck.

dave

 

[pacanis]

frizzen-cam

Cam. I knew there must be a proper name for it

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Cam. I knew there must be a proper name for it

We knew what you meant, and I'm not sure it's not called a "toe"....

LD

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Two things. Is the lock lubed? And, I think your frizzen is soft.

 

[pacanis]

We knew what you meant, and I'm not sure it's not called a "toe"....

LD

I think I saw someone calling it a spur, too.
Or maybe that's the part that prevents over travel.
I couldn't find a picture labeling the parts of a frizzen lol

 

[Sam squanch]

I thought we saw the last of old Coily…..I guess he sprung back into our lives again……

 

[Sam squanch]

And your are supposed to be listening to bluegrass or old country music in your shop, you were listening to some teenage stuff…..

 

[IanH]

Frizzen definitely too soft, the flint is hitting it with reasonable force and only producing a few, dull red sparks. It should be throwing orange-yellow sparks. The other thing about soft frizzens is they allow the flint to "bite" into their surface too much, robbing energy and ripping the sharp edge off of the flint which reduces flint life drastically. Try re-casing it (since it needs heated anyway) and a good quench in room temperature water (hold with pliers and swish it around in a large container of water, don't just drop it in a tuna can or bowl), and pack the frizzen shoe part in a wet cloth or stab a fresh potato with a knife and shove the frizzen in there up to the pan, draw the rest of the pan cover all the way to the "toe" or cam back to a dark blue to keep it from breaking at the bend. If the face ends up being too hard (not likely), you can always draw it very slightly in your kitchen oven.

I also agree that the cam-over point is too far forward and the frizzen is soaking up all of the cock's energy prematurely. You may or may not have a spring balance problem but it will be difficult to tell for sure by function alone until the frizzen face is right. Mr. Person's instructions for testing springs will help you diagnose the issue, or at least eliminate springs as a cause.

Here's a well-tuned Willy Cochran lock with a homemade chert flint:



Here's a tuned but poor quality lock after having the steel frizzen hardened twice and the face left as hard as it would possibly quench the second time and the feather spring annealed, spread open and re-arched, hardened, and tempered in a lead pot. The frizzen would bounce five times instead of two before fixing the spring and sometimes would bounce back hard enough to break the flint:

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
This has nothing to do with the frizzen too soft or no lube. It may be the frizzen is not hard enough but that is not causing the current problem. Most TRS locks I've built (many) show this behavior when first assembled after heat treating. They just need tweaking and the springs balanced. Hopefully you case hardened the frizzen packed in charcoal for at least 2 hours and did not use something quick and dirty. Moreover, the steel alloy in TRS springs will produce mushy springs unless hardened and tempered properly. Make sure the quench is either canola oil, or light quenching oil. You may need to resort to brine. Tempering for the springs should not be above 750 degrees F.

dave

 

[Larks]

Thankyou all for the incredibly helpful replies and advice and my apologies for the slow response while I’ve been working through them, I’m getting the impression that I have a number of issues but taking them as they come (I can’t seem to get a multiquote thing happening so my apologies for not recognising everyone directly):

With the feather spring relieved the frizzen does swing back and forward completely freely. The only other flintlock that I have to compare it to is an original 1780-1800 Ketland holster pistol (TK senior - British domestic, ie not a trade pistol) and the frizzen on the Baker is certainly very much stiffer (but then the Ketland is so old that it’s not really a fair comparison).

The hammer/cock also swings freely back and forward with the mainspring removed.

However, measuring the weight of the hammer with a trigger pull as Dave suggested I’m seeing only 7 to 8lb while the frizzen is looking like 3 to 4lb.....

As mentioned the frizzen cam is quite stiff and I can see that at the very least it needs more polishing (it quite happily sits firmly at the angle in the photo below) so I’ll also shape it as suggested - but I’ll sneak up on it.......

The different strike marks on the frizzen face are from when I tried flipping the flint and from when I had it in lead, which held it further forward. I’m wondering where the initial strike “zone” should actually be and how this compares? :

I’m not surprised about the suggestions that the frizzen face needs further hardening, this project was the first time that I’ve attempted case hardening and although I’ve case hardened everything that TRS recommended, I haven’t really known how to judge the success of it. But the lack of spark and the markings on this face have had me planning to redo it anyway.

So, todays projects ......so far:

• Polish and shape the frizzen cam
• Re-harden and temper the main spring
• Re-case harden the frizzen
• Report back with outstanding success

 

[TDM]

Might have missed it, but how does the lock function when removed from the stock? The potential problems need to be eliminated one at a time. If the cock still doesn't close all the way, check for binding in the bridle and tumbler or lack of lube. If it does close or stops on a partially opened frizzen, then remove the frizzen spring and check that the frizzen moves freely. All one step at a time.

 

[Larks]

.......Try re-casing it (since it needs heated anyway) and a good quench in room temperature water (hold with pliers and swish it around in a large container of water, don't just drop it in a tuna can or bowl), and pack the frizzen shoe part in a wet cloth or stab a fresh potato with a knife and shove the frizzen in there up to the pan, draw the rest of the pan cover all the way to the "toe" or cam back to a dark blue to keep it from breaking at the bend. If the face ends up being too hard (not likely), you can always draw it very slightly in your kitchen oven.

.....

..... and tempered in a lead pot. ...

Thanks Ian and please excuse my lack of understanding but which part is the frizzen shoe? ...

Also in regards to tempering in a lead pot, I saw Mark on “Welcome to the Cinnabar” using that technique and he used nitre salts to temper the springs in but mentioned that you could also use lead. How do you do it yourself? I do have a Lee lead pot but hadn’t thought to try and use it.

 

[Larks]

And your are supposed to be listening to bluegrass or old country music in your shop, you were listening to some teenage stuff…..

You’ve lost me on the “Coily” reference Sam but as for the radio in the background I did actually for a moment consider turning it off. My wife calls it the “oldies station” and they’re usually playing much more age appropriate and pleasant music than that