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Flintlock Rifle Flash Hole Placement

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In that regard, opinions here don't mean jack either.

Don't disagree, but here's one that I personally think you can take to the bank; they have built and sold thousands of these guns. It won't be the first time they have considered whether or not this is an issue and they have undoubtedly determined that it is not a functional issue. The OP can go through the warranty process and the end result will be the loss of his shipping costs.

As you stated, and I agree, a return and refund is unlikely. Even if Traditions were to determine them defective the remedy will probably be only repair or replace.

A read of Pletcher's results in the post directly above should settle the function question.

The guns need to be shot!!
 
Don't disagree, but here's one that I personally think you can take to the bank; they have built and sold thousands of these guns. It won't be the first time they have considered whether or not this is an issue and they have undoubtedly determined that it is not a functional issue. The OP can go through the warranty process and the end result will be the loss of his shipping costs.

As you stated, and I agree, a return and refund is unlikely. Even if Traditions were to determine them defective the remedy will probably be only repair or replace.

A read of Pletcher's results in the post directly above should settle the function question.

The guns need to be shot!!

No offense intended to the OP but I don't think we are dealing with a very experienced flintlock shooter here. Sure, shoot the rifles, or better yet find an experienced shooter to shoot them with him for a proper evaluation. If something is wrong though I think his best recourse is warranty or finding a good gunsmith if he intends to keep them.
 
View attachment 289345View attachment 289345
Here is the photo of the Kentucky Rifle Flash Hole - low & forward. the photo in my previous post is of the Hawken - flash hole low & back of pan.
That flash hole is low but shouldn't be causing ignition problems. My first longrifle was the Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle. I had a hard time getting some good reliability out of it because Traditions uses that darn tiny lock on it. It's actually the size of pistol lock and is much smaller than locks used on longrifles at the time. Below is a shot of mine. By the way I pickled the barrel to make it look old, which is why it's not blued. It's a Hershel House technique that a gunmaker in our reenactment group helped me with.

Anyhow, you can see below that my flash hole is also a bit low, but not as low as yours. Ideally it will either have the center of the flash hole even with the top of the pan or slightly above. That lock also ate flints until I found out why and fixed it.

vent2_512x384.jpg


Compare the size of that pan with the one on my L&R Queen Anne lock that I have on my Early Lancaster rifle:
VentAndPan4_500x375.jpg


Now, because I'm familiar with the idiosyncrasies of that lock I can make it go off reliably. Part of the trick with that lock is to only fill it half full with 3F powder. Then close the frizzen and while holding the wrist of the rifle, snap your wrist to the right in a sudden rocking motion. Then open the frizzen and look at the powder. It should be banked on the far side of the lock with an empty space next to the flash hole. That empty space allows the flash to travel across the pan unimpeded and into the flash hole and that's the key to getting it to flash quickly and stay away from the dreaded Sssshhhhh BOOM! Hollywood film effect. It becomes second nature after a while of closing the frizzen and snapping your wrist to the right. If you fill that tiny channel with powder, the flash has to burn through it to get to the flash hole.

If you really want to surprise yourself, lick your finger and stroke it through the pan. Then fill the pan with powder and dump it out. Because you wet the pan slightly, small grains of powder will coat the pan. Close the frizzen and fire the rifle. It will go off perfectly fine with just that thin coating of powder adhering to the bottom and sides of the pan. The worst thing you can do with that lock is fill it up to the top, so don't - half-full; close the frizzen; snap your wrist to the right. You're ready to shoot and it will go off virtually every time if you load it that way.

Different locks require different things and half of the fun (and most of the frustration) is figuring out what your gun likes, needs, or wants. The longrifle I use now is an Early Lancaster rifle with a 44½" swamped barrel that is 60" long overall and about 2-lbs lighter than my Traditions longrifle. It has an L&R Queen Anne lock on it. It is a much larger lock than the traditions and it has a pan about 4 times larger than that. Doesn't matter with that lock at all whether I put in a little powder, a lot of powder, bank it to one side, or whatever. It just always goes off. There is a bit of pride though when you figure out an idiosyncrasy with a temperamental rifle that makes it fire reliably for you...but not just anybody can pick it up and make it work.;)

As I mentioned earlier, I had a real problem with this lock eating flints or even breaking them. There's not much difference in this lock between putting the flint too far forward and putting it too far back. Too far forward will smash the tip of the flint and flatten it out. Too far back and the flint will actually slap against the frizzen and break a chunk of the underside of the flint off. At the correct angle the flint will slice along the frizzen scraping offsuper-heated shards from the frizzen (sparks). When you get the right angle on where the flint strikes the frizzen, you will suddenly get 80 to 100 strikes or more out of one of these small flints. The trick is to set the flint up so that it strikes the frizzen at a 55° to 60° angle. To check this, first of all make sure there is no powder either in the pan or in the barrel (safety first, last, and always!). Then to see the angle it is striking pull the cock into full-cock position and close the frizzen. Then hold onto the cock with your thumb, pull the trigger and slowly lower the cock until the flint touches the frizzen. Take a look at the angle and decide if it's too little angle, too much angle, or just right. the frizzen is curved, but if you draw a line straight up from where the edge of the flint contacts the fizzen and then look at the angle the flint hits that line, you can make reasonable adjustments. It really is a Goldilocks adjustment. Here's a chart to help you get in the neighborhood of the correct angle. The magic seems to happen at a 55° to 60° angle for almost everyone:
60°Angle.gif


When you get your flint around this angle your flint will not only last a very long time, but it is self sharpening and you won't find yourself knapping it all the time like you will if you don't pay attention to this angle. You may find the angle that works on your lock is slightly different from this but it won't be by much. There are very simple indicators if you have the angle too steep or too shallow. If it's too shallow you will crumble the edge of your flint and find out you have to sharpen your flint by knapping it. If it's too steep, the top of the flint will slap the frizzen instead of the edge of the flint hitting it and you will knock a big piece(s) off the bottom of your flint. So adjust it as needed, but odds are it will be within that 55° to 60° angle.

If I recall correctly that lock uses a 5/8" flint. I think it calls for a 5/8" wide by 3/4" long flint, but I had a lot of trouble getting the flint back far enough to get the right angle with the 3/4" length. If you run into that, a simple solution is to use a thinner leather pad to hold the flint. If that is still not good enough, fold the leather pad you use to hold the flint in half and then cut a "V" notch in the folded edge of it. This will give you a diamond cut that will let you move even farther back because the leather won't butt up against the cock screw that is used to tighten the jaws.

If you need to move the flint forward a fair amount to get that angle, either use a thicker leather pad or put a twig behind the leather flint pad to help keep it from slipping back. I believe I just ended up ordering the 5/8 "x 5/8" flints from Track of the Wolf for it back then. As long as the flint is positioned correctly and I flick my wrist to the right after half-filling the pan, it became a reliable shooter. It was also very accurate but required a heavy load (95grs.). I think my barrel from about 2003 or 2004 is longer than the current model. The barrel on mine is 40¼" long and I think the current model has a 38" or 39" barrel/ You'll have to work up your own load for accuracy once you get it firing reliably all the time.

Hope that helps,
Twisted_1in66
Dan
 
Last edited:
Thank you everyone for your patience and sharing your knowledge. As soon as we get some decent weather here, I am going out to shoot these rifles with my buddies.

And thank you longcruise & twisted 1in66for that article. It makes me a bit more confident in these rifles.
 
Thank you everyone for your patience and sharing your knowledge. As soon as we get some decent weather here, I am going out to shoot these rifles with my buddies.

And thank you longcruise & twisted 1in66for that article. It makes me a bit more confident in these rifles.
Hope this works out. There's a learning curve for all things muzzle loading and unfortunately your entry was a tight spot in the curve. I think it's all going to go well and you didn't spin out. 😀
 
That flash hole is low but shouldn't be causing ignition problems. My first longrifle was the Traditions Pennsylvania Longrifle. I had a hard time getting some good reliability out of it because Traditions uses that darn tiny lock on it. It's actually the size of pistol lock and is much smaller than locks used on longrifles at the time. Below is a shot of mine. By the way I pickled the barrel to make it look old, which is why it's not blued. It's a Hershel House technique that a gunmaker in our reenactment group helped me with.

Anyhow, you can see below that my flash hole is also a bit low, but not as low as yours. Ideally it will either have the center of the flash hole even with the top of the pan or slightly above. That lock also ate flints until I found out why and fixed it.

View attachment 290027

Compare the size of that pan with the one on my L&R Queen Anne lock that I have on my Early Lancaster rifle:
View attachment 290225

Now, because I'm familiar with the idiosyncrasies of that lock I can make it go off reliably. Part of the trick with that lock is to only fill it half full with 3F powder. Then close the frizzen and while holding the wrist of the rifle, snap your wrist to the right in a sudden rocking motion. Then open the frizzen and look at the powder. It should be banked on the far side of the lock with an empty space next to the flash hole. That empty space allows the flash to travel across the pan unimpeded and into the flash hole and that's the key to getting it to flash quickly and stay away from the dreaded Sssshhhhh BOOM! Hollywood film effect. It becomes second nature after a while of closing the frizzen and snapping your wrist to the right. If you fill that tiny channel with powder, the flash has to burn through it to get to the flash hole.

If you really want to surprise yourself, lick your finger and stroke it through the pan. Then fill the pan with powder and dump it out. Because you wet the pan slightly, small grains of powder will coat the pan. Close the frizzen and fire the rifle. It will go off perfectly fine with just that thin coating of powder adhering to the bottom and sides of the pan. The worst thing you can do with that lock is fill it up to the top, so don't - half-full; close the frizzen; snap your wrist to the right. You're ready to shoot and it will go off virtually every time if you load it that way.

Different locks require different things and half of the fun (and most of the frustration) is figuring out what your gun likes, needs, or wants. The longrifle I use now is an Early Lancaster rifle with a 44½" swamped barrel that is 60" long overall and about 2-lbs lighter than my Traditions longrifle. It has an L&R Queen Anne lock on it. It is a much larger lock than the traditions and it has a pan about 4 times larger than that. Doesn't matter with that lock at all whether I put in a little powder, a lot of powder, bank it to one side, or whatever. It just always goes off. There is a bit of pride though when you figure out an idiosyncrasy with a temperamental rifle that makes it fire reliably for you...but not just anybody can pick it up and make it work.;)

As I mentioned earlier, I had a real problem with this lock eating flints or even breaking them. There's not much difference in this lock between putting the flint too far forward and putting it too far back. Too far forward will smash the tip of the flint and flatten it out. Too far back and the flint will actually slap against the frizzen and break a chunk of the underside of the flint off. At the correct angle the flint will slice along the frizzen scraping offsuper-heated shards from the frizzen (sparks). When you get the right angle on where the flint strikes the frizzen, you will suddenly get 80 to 100 strikes or more out of one of these small flints. The trick is to set the flint up so that it strikes the frizzen at a 55° to 60° angle. To check this, first of all make sure there is no powder either in the pan or in the barrel (safety first, last, and always!). Then to see the angle it is striking pull the cock into full-cock position and close the frizzen. Then hold onto the cock with your thumb, pull the trigger and slowly lower the cock until the flint touches the frizzen. Take a look at the angle and decide if it's too little angle, too much angle, or just right. the frizzen is curved, but if you draw a line straight up from where the edge of the flint contacts the fizzen and then look at the angle the flint hits that line, you can make reasonable adjustments. It really is a Goldilocks adjustment. Here's a chart to help you get in the neighborhood of the correct angle. The magic seems to happen at a 55° to 60° angle for almost everyone:
View attachment 290054

When you get your flint around this angle your flint will not only last a very long time, but it is self sharpening and you won't find yourself knapping it all the time like you will if you don't pay attention to this angle. You may find the angle that works on your lock is slightly different from this but it won't be by much. There are very simple indicators if you have the angle too steep or too shallow. If it's too shallow you will crumble the edge of your flint and find out you have to sharpen your flint by knapping it. If it's too steep, the top of the flint will slap the frizzen instead of the edge of the flint hitting it and you will knock a big piece(s) off the bottom of your flint. So adjust it as needed, but odds are it will be within that 55° to 60° angle.

If I recall correctly that lock uses a 5/8" flint. I think it calls for a 5/8" wide by 3/4" long flint, but I had a lot of trouble getting the flint back far enough to get the right angle with the 3/4" length. If you run into that, a simple solution is to use a thinner leather pad to hold the flint. If that is still not good enough, fold the leather pad you use to hold the flint in half and then cut a "V" notch in the folded edge of it. This will give you a diamond cut that will let you move even farther back because the leather won't butt up against the cock screw that is used to tighten the jaws.

If you need to move the flint forward a fair amount to get that angle, either use a thicker leather pad or put a twig behind the leather flint pad to help keep it from slipping back. I believe I just ended up ordering the 5/8 "x 5/8" flints from Track of the Wolf for it back then. As long as the flint is positioned correctly and I flick my wrist to the right after half-filling the pan, it became a reliable shooter. It was also very accurate but required a heavy load (95grs.). I think my barrel from about 2003 or 2004 is longer than the current model. The barrel on mine is 40¼" long and I think the current model has a 38" or 39" barrel/ You'll have to work up your own load for accuracy once you get it firing reliably all the time.

Hope that helps,
Twisted_1in66
Dan
Great information right here. Thank you so much for sharing.
 
I admire you guys who can build those guns. I've built a few myself but mostly my best work is not that great. But all of my guns are from kits that I built except my first TC Hawken from 50 years back.

Not everyone has the skill, time, tools or the MONEY to get into building so have to be satisfied with "junk" guns. FWIW, my "junk" guns regularly out shoot many custom or higher end guns so..................
My feelings exactly. We should be encouraging people to get into the sport and enjoy it. Like most sports people start with lower end budget equipment to see if they like it and down the road upgrade to something better/different. With threads like "these are all junk" how many potential new shooters have decided to not try muzzleloading because they read that all the low budget rifles are junk and you need to spend thousands to even give it a go. Seen this at the gun store counter many times with the unmentionables too! In the current state of our Countries we need to have as many new shooters as we can get to keep our sport from being banned. That is especially true here in Canada. Luckily I also dabble in primitive archery and the way things are going in this country we may be reduced stick, string and rock sooner than later!
 
Make a post asking about where to correctly locate a flashole on a build and 99.9% of the respondents will say center of pan at a sunset position.

Make a post like this one and 99% will respond that doesn't matter.

The irony of the internet.......
 
The theory of the best place to position the flintlock's touch hole is in the sunset position with respect to the pan. A level fill of priming powder puts the leading burning heat right at the closest place to the charge in the bore.

In practice, we can get acceptable ignition performance with the touch hole located in various other locations in the pan. We learn how to place the priming powder to best advantage and performance approaches the theoretical optimum position.
 
Hello All and thank you for your helpful responses.

I must say, I sent these Flintlock Rifles back to Traditions and they issued me a full refund! That speaks volumes about what a great company they are and how they stand behind their product.

Also, I replaced one of these rifles with a Lyman .54 cal Flintlock Trade Rifle that I purchased from one of our Members and couldn't be more pleased.

Now, I just need to find a higher end used Flintlock Longrifle in .50 or .54 caliber at the right price and I should be good for a while.
 
Glad things worked out for you Ruffedgrouse. In all my years of schooling new flintlock shooters, the hardest part was to convince them not to put too much priming powder in the pan. Even half full is way too much powder. I prefer 4F for priming simply because I have a lot of it and that is what my grandfather taught me to use 70 years ago. Others like 3F powder for the main charge and to prime with. That works just as well, if there isn't too much powder in the pan.
 
I have a hawken woodsman, I ended up just filing a notch lower....It for the most part didnt make much of a difference. It has a coned touchhole liner, so that offsets the powder train a bit....Overall unnoticeable....
 
Well, I bought a used Traditions Flintlock Kentucky Rifle from a Member here a couple of months ago. The Flash Hole was perfect - the hole itself being slightly above the top of the pan and centered. Seek and ye shall find...

Did I mention, Traditions was very kind in taking back my original Kentucky & Hawken Flintlock Rifles and refunding my money, as I was unhappy with the flash-hole placement of both Rifles. I can't say enough about Traditions standing behind their products.
 
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