Flintlock Rifle Identification

[Aargow]

Hi Folks,
I've got an old flintlock here that I'm trying to identify. I'm hoping that one of you might have some idea of who the maker might have been.
First attempt at posting pictures...hopefully this works.
About 5 inches forward of the breech is what at one time was a nicely engraved name. Now all that I can make out is what looks like two Js.
The rifle appears to be a .45ish caliber. the lock is marked "London Warranted". The rifle has quite a few silver inlays and a nice cap box. The cap box has a release button on the toe plate.
I have more pictures of the rifle but will wait to see if the three that I've posted show up.
Thanks in advance for you help.
Paul

 

[lyman1903]

your pictures did not show for me,

hope this helps,

 

[Nessmuck56]

What a drop on that gun............!! Very nice.

 

[Aargow]

Thanks for fixing my pictures! That's the gun.

 

[Aargow]

Here are a few more pictures...if I can figure out what I did wrong the first time :redface:

 

[Zonie]

After going thru a number of books, studying the various patch-box's used on the original longrifles I came up with nothing.

If I were to make a guess about your rifle I would say it is most likely from the Chambersburg School, Franklin County, Pa.

Quite a few of the guns from this area had a lot of drop with little rise in the comb at its junction with the wrist. Both the upper comb and the underside of the butt on these rifles are straight. This is similar to the Bedford rifles but the Franklin Co. rifles stocks are thicker and more robust. The locks used on these Franklin rifles are more in line with the normally used locks of other makers rather than being the slim locks used on the Bedford county rifles.

Not knowing your level of knowledge I'll mention that the drop is the distance below the centerline of the barrel to the rear of the stock (the butt) at the buttplate. The comb is the raised area along the top of the butt where the shooters face would be).

I would guess the time period for this gun would be roughly 1780-1820.
This is the era sometimes called the "Golden Age" and rifles made during this period often had the moderately wide, slightly curved butt plates of the pre Revolutionary War period rather than the narrow deeply curved butt plates that became popular in the 1830's. While maintaining the thicker butt of the earlier rifles, the patchbox and carvings became quite elaborate during this period.

The 4 piece patch box (2 side panels, lid and finial (fixed part at the front)) was rather uncommon before or during the Revolutionary War but became popular later.

The deeply curved grip rail at the rear of the trigger guard also places this gun at sometime in the very late 18th, into the 19th Century.

It's a beautiful gun and you should be proud to own this piece of history.

 

[Aargow]

Zonie,

Thanks for taking time to research this. I really appreciate the information that you have provided.

It is certainly an interesting gun. It's not comfortable on my shoulder. It was clearly built for a smaller man: The trigger reach is about 12.5 inches and I feel that I have to hunch my back to sight down the barrel. The barrel length is 40 inches.

I did some research as well and to my untrained eye it resembles examples of George Schreyer guns. That would fit the time frame and geography that you have suggested. Also, the first J actually looks like it has a faint loop at the top like a lower-case G. However, I'm having a hard time imagining the second letter being an S.

If anyone has a photo of a Schreyer signed barrel, I would appreciate seeing what it looks like.

I wonder if the patchbox mechanism can be used as an indicator of the builder? I will try to get some pictures of that and post them.

Thanks again,

Paul

 

[Aargow]

Here are some pics of the patchbox release. It has a push-rod coming up from the toe plate. The button is not disguised as a screw but rather rounded over like a button.

 

[jamesthomas]

That sure is a nice rifle!, my LOP is right at 12 1/2 inches so you can send it to me if its too uncomfortable to shoot for ya :grin: . Btw, that drop must be around 5 inches :shocked2: .

 

[Aargow]

Thanks Armakiller. I will keep you in mind as a willing recipient. :thumbsup:

It is a beauty. The builder seemed to like metal work more than wood. The stock doesn't have much carving. However, all of the metal was engraved. Even the barrel looks as though it had a design running the full length of the upper three flats. By the way, the barrel is straight (not tapered or swamped).

I had to look up how to measure the drop. Recreating the American Longrifle describes it on page 12. Using that method, I measured the drop at 5.75 to 6 inches.

Paul

 

[nwtradegun]

rifle is held with butt plate planted on upper arm not shoulder. common to pa and kent. rifle late 1700s. picked up a repro of one and had a hell of a time shooting it until and old timer showed me. his was 30 yrs ago.

 

[Aargow]

Thanks RJ, I'll try that and see if it fits more comfortably on my arm. I have no plans to actually shoot it, but it's fun to look down the barrel and imagine what that view looked like when it was a new gun.

 

[Aargow]

Here's my current theory on this gun: I think that it may have been built by John Shuler (Schuler), Sr. The elder Shuler was a gunsmith in Quakertown, PA in 1811. He moved his family to Liverpool in Perry County, PA in 1817 and made guns there until his death in 1822.
There are a couple of reasons why I think it is a Shuler: I've found a photo of one with a very similar patchbox; this gun also appeared to have a large drop and minimal comb; and there is a pattern on the barrel that seems to be common on Shuler guns.
His three sons were also gunsmiths. His son, John Jr. was an accomplished builder but stamped his barrels, with his name, in block letters. For this reason, I don't think it is the work of John Jr. but it is possible that it is one of his very early guns. He probably began building guns shortly after his father's death.
I have yet to find an example of how John Sr. signed his work. if anyone knows where I might find an example of his work or obtain a photo of one of his signed barrels, I would appreciate hearing from you.
Thanks,
Paul

 

[wpjson]

It seems to resemble a gun discussed in the latest issue of Muzzle Blasts, which I just got. Take a look. I may be wrong, but a lot of similarities.

 

[garra]

Nice looking rifle. those initials look to me like two script G G s which are my initials. And yesterday was my birthday, let me know if you need my address.

 

[Aargow]

wpjson - I agree. I was looking closely at those. Especially figure 4B on page 10. This one has a brass tang extending up the comb like that one. I'd like to find more pictures of that (H. Spitzer) gun

garra - Happy Birthday!
The the big flaw with trying to assign this the John Shuler is it just doesn't look like a J and S. However, I took a pencil tracing of the barrel markings. In it, the second letter begins to look a little more like and S as I believe that I can see the extension to the right at the top.
I've tried to draw it on the attached picture. The top is what appears to be left of the signature. Below it is what I think might have been written. On the lower right I added three letters from a font called 'Kunstler Script'. Based on this, I don't think that a J and S are completely out of the question.
Ultimately, I'd really like to see an example of J. Shuler's barrel inscription.

 

[Aargow]

Check out this link: http://www.prices4antiques.com/Rifle-Shuler-John-Flintlock-Tiger-Maple-Patchbox-D9699450.html

This page shows the barrel signature engraving of an early Shuler. It's a small picture but I think this is an example of what the signature on this gun looked like.