Flints Breaking

[rancher]

The frizzen is pretty hard to open, but I don't have a lot to compare it to and I don't have a trigger pull gauge, but it seems a bit hard to open. I put two pieces of leather under the flint plus the piece of leather around the flint and it seems to be striking a little higher now, but the sparks land forward of the pan with this set-up instead of in the pan. I also have those horizontal marks on my frizzen as described in an earlier reply. I'm going to keep tinkering with it and maybe even try lightening the frizzen spring up some. I'd hate to ruin it, but it's better than no spark and junk flints.

 

[MSW]

i agree with Paul- it sounds as though the flint isn't hitting the frizzen where it should, so the first thing i'd do is get a flint which will be the correct size (i.e,. one which will hit the frizzen about a third of the way from the top).

If that doesn't work, you might want to consider lightening the frizzen spring, but go slow and keep things smooth.

best of luck- the tinkering is worth the effort when the rifle gets to shooting well!

 

[Dphar]

Well Dan weakening the frizzen spring solved the problem so maybe it had to be the flintlock gremlins :haha:

I have played around with springs a lot and in general they are too weak.
If I had a frizzen that was really eating flints I would look at the heat treat. I would tend to reharden and then anneal to 375 degrees and try it that way A frizzen that is just a little too soft may spark OK but may let the flint dig in too deep then break off.
But every lock can be a law unto itself and I have no experience with TC, Lyman etc and never will have since I won't have one in the shop.
I have a Chamber's "Dale Johnson" lock (http://www.flintlocks.com/locks6.htm) I just received. Nice stiff springs, the stiffest as purchased I have ever seen, frizzen is hard to move etc etc. Don't eat flints. It uses large Siler parts.
So stiff springs alone is not a the cause in all cases. But as with many things doing one thing may effect a fix by compensating some other shortcoming.
If it works OK afterwards its fixed.

Dan

 

[ohio ramrod]

I had two flintlocks that constantly broke flints no matter what I tried until people on this forum mentioned lightening the frizzen spring. Now both guns will give between 35 and fifty good sparking strikes be fore the flints need reknapped. Unfortunately I am still knapping impared! :idunno: :idunno: But even 35 is a lot better than the two or three I got before! :hmm:

 

[Dphar]

Just thinking I have a custom rifle here that was a chronic flint eater. Tried everything. Weakened the mainspring to the point it was unreliable.
The maker had changed frizzens on his, these rifles were made in the 1970s, to one with more curve, radius to the frizzen face. I put on of these on, got a spring from a friend who had bought the parts from the other friend when he retired and the lock is fixed. Stiffer than before mainspring, but the frizzen now has a radius face rather than a flat one. No more broken flints. Speed and reliability is back.
So I have a hard time subscribing to the "springs are too stiff" argument as a fix for flint eaters.
There are many possibilities the springs IMO is the least important. Thus the statement "if the lock is right".

I guess what statement "this can be very complex and the obvious answer can be the wrong one or at least not the right one" is the statement I am groping for here.
Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

You can have as stiff a spring as you want, provided that the contact surface of the working spring arm is polished, to reduce FRICTION. And, then the cam on the bottom of the frizzen has to be polished to reduce friction when it rubs against the spring. Finally, you have to control the amount of movement of that spring arm on the frizzen spring, to reduce the amount of force needed to open the frizzen Quickly, so that sparks are Thrown down into the flash pan, NOT DRIBBLED down the face of the slowly opening frizzen.

It helps of course, that the pivot pin/screw on the frizzen be oiled, and working smoothly. Without that pivot being attended to, all the other work is not very effective.

The ONLY 2 reasons to reduce spring tension are: 1. to stop the severe rattling of the gun barrel and sights when the lock is fired, as all that energy IS transferred to the gun barrel; and 2. to reduce the amount of damage done to the edge of the flints( "eating flints").

That latter point doesn't seem to matter to all flintlock shooters. But, in today's economy, with the cost of flints running a dollar apiece, it does matter to many flintlock shooters. I only include information on the subject to help them achieve their goal of having the least expensive, Large bore caliber rifle they can own and reliably shoot to take big game. If you like replacing flints after every 10-20 shots, knock yourself OUT!

You are correct about the angle of the frizzen face being adjusted to a correct arc. It is important( and lacking on so many locks). For most flintlock shooters, they can't afford to replace an existing lock with a custom designed and made lock, so they are left with making adjustments with the existing frizzen arc, and with the height of the existing Hammer( cock). :hmm:

 

[Dphar]

Just thinking I have a custom rifle here that was a chronic flint eater. Tried everything. Weakened the mainspring to the point it was unreliable.
The maker had changed frizzens on his, these rifles were made in the 1970s, to one with more curve, radius to the frizzen face. I put one of these on, got a spring from a friend who had bought the parts from the other friend when he retired and the lock is fixed. Stiffer than before mainspring, but the frizzen now has a radius face rather than a flat one. No more broken flints. Speed and reliability is back.
So I have a hard time subscribing to the "springs are too stiff" argument as a fix for flint eaters.
There are many possibilities the springs IMO is the least important. Thus the statement "if the lock is right".

I guess "this can be very complex and the obvious answer can be the wrong one or at least not the right one" is the statement I am groping for here.
Dan

edit reason (I gotta start proof reading better)

 

[Dphar]

The L&R 1700 (Manton/Bailes) makes a great pistol lock and even with stiffened springs will not jar a pistol off target since the frizzen is really not that heavy.The way its sprung can have an effect too.

But a bigger frizzen can, the shock transmitted by a frizzen like the large Siler is significant and I suppose it could be a factor in lighter guns.

Dan

 

[gunsports]

Like this?

 

[Old Salt]

I have found that adding a drop of oil to the upper surface of the frizzen spring where it makes contact with the frizzen cam helps.

I figure since I am polishing those two surfaces to reduce friction that a drop of oil aids that process.

Leo

 

[matt denison]

Yikes Dan. You always come up with the eye candy. I love the trigger guard..... I have a L/R Manton on a pistol, it works great and one thing I like about it is that the main spring/tumbler toe allows you to take a little off the hammer stop so you can get the flint pointing right into the pan. If I could force myself to post pictures I'd show you what I mean but I'm sure you can imagine what I'm talking about.

I agree with Dan's statement that every lock is an entity unto itself. Some locks that look "wrong" spark and snap just fine. Whether the flint hits high or hits in the middle isn't so important. Straight frizzen or curved depends on the length of the hammer more than the shape. Springs need to be balancedd TO EACH OTHER, there is no hard and fast rule. Frizzen spring SHAPE can have more to do with function than tension. Also visa versa. Where the pivot hole is in relation to the toe, the distance between the frizz. face and the pivot can also affect function. There are so many variables that diagnosing on a forum is just guess work and the best you can hope for is getting input from someone who has the same lock and had the same problem with it and fixed it.

GPR flintlocks are notoriously fnicky. I think Fleto on this forum has had a lot of experience with them and has posted his fixes for them. They mostly have to do with moving the flint up using a shim under the flint in the cock jaws. In effect lengthening the throw.

 

[ebiggs1]

Most of this stuff is just band aids. The cure is a TC hammer cock installed on the GPR lock,or better yet an L&R replacement lock.
I re-read Mr.vallandigham 's article and I still disagree with several of his recommendations for instance banking the powder away from the touch hole, lead wraps, etc, but that is a different subject.

 

[longbow1]

I have had 3 of these GPR's that I shoot and they all have had the curved frizzen tried everything that was mentioned short of changing locks or changing parts and in this day and age buying parts is out of the question .Don't have the money so doing what I can with my own skills is the only thing I can do . I don't feel that I am alone in this . I don't believe that the GPR's are that bad of a gun .Those of you who can afford a 1500 dollar think that a production gun is a waste on money .That my be so however I would gladly put my Lyman up against any of the high dollar customs for accuracy

 

[paulvallandigham]

You and others have misread my article concerning banking the powder in my pan, and have led me to decide to revise the text to make my meaning more clear. I never meant for the powder to be AWAY from the barrel when its banked.

I have powder under the TH at the barrel, but its banked from there outward so that the TH remains clear for fire to enter it. This works on guns with a " Sunset" TH position in relation to the top edge of the pan. It also helps folks with THs that are below the top edge of the pan. I bank the powder only to make sure I am not going to block the TH with powder when I fire the gun.

Blocking the TH delays ignition( hang-fire) which is neither conducive to accuracy, nor to confidence in the gun going off.

My fowler was built with the TH located .020" above the top line of the pan. I fill the pan full on that lock, and ignition is reliable and very fast.

My gunmaker also widened the pan on that lock, to give a bigger( fore and aft of the TH) target for the sparks to hit. The pan is shallow compared to some pans you find on some different flintlocks. Its polished smooth as glass, to make it easy to wipe clean, and resist BP residue sticking in its pores. Its the residue that is Hygroscopic, not BP. The Frizzen still covers the wider flash pan completely, when closed.

 

[rancher]

Lots of good suggestions and information to digest. Thank you for all the replies. If I got a longer flint though wouldn't my sparks land even farther out of the pan though? Also maybe my frizzen is indeed too soft. Not sure, but I will have to check into that also. If I knew how to go about polishing parts to make the frizzen open easy I would try that too.

 

[rancher]

Also if I were to widen the pan or lighten the frizzen spring how would I go about that specifically. I do have access to a dremel tool if that would help. Couple other questions, how do I go about measuring the 25 degree angle that the flint is supposed to be from the frizzen and would a T/C lock fit my GPR? Thanks. I'll try and get some pics up and maybe it would make it easier to diagnose some of my problems.

 

[Old Salt]

If I knew how to go about polishing parts to make the frizzen open easy I would try that too.

Put one of the fiber polishing disks on your Dremel tool and load it up with polishing compound. Polish the top of the frizzen spring and the frizzen cam where they interact. Of course you need to remove those parts from the lock to do a good job.

Leo

 

[ebiggs1]

On this, sir, we are in agreement!

 

[ebiggs1]

Don't let anyone discourage you as some only see HC/PC and anything else is bad. The Lyman is a diamond in the rough. The rough is the lock and to a lesser extent the trigger group. With a Davis trigger and a L&R lock it is not only a nice rifle, it is a very good one. I have no real opinion on their cap lock guns but I have several of their flintlocks. Oh, and BTW, those two upgrades and a Lyman kit gun, you can still be in the $500+ dollar range. Brand new!

 

[ebiggs1]

Lots of good suggestions and information to digest. Thank you for all the replies. If I got a longer flint though wouldn't my sparks land even farther out of the pan though? Also maybe my frizzen is indeed too soft. Not sure, but I will have to check into that also. If I knew how to go about polishing parts to make the frizzen open easy I would try that too.

You can make that pretty bad lock into a horrible lock very quickly. Extra parts is the key word here, before you begin, I might add.