Fluxing Lead

[scott taylor]

It finally got cool enough to go to the shed and cast some ball for a rifle I don't even have yet.
Has anyone ever fluxed with a dry stick? Seems like the theory is the stick will char and the carbon will attach to any of the oxides in the lead and float up to be skimed. Actually seems to work.

Scott

 

[necchi]

Well your right about the carbon and how fluxing works, but I never used a stick.
A pea size bit of wax works great, parrifin or bees wax, heck even shaving a bit off a crayon or candle works, it doesn't take much.

I'm sure a stick would do the job, but then ya gotta pull it out and what'll ya do with a smoldering stick?

 

[TimJ]

I've melted a lot of lead over the past ten years, mostly for fishing weights and jigs, but I've never fluxed. What exactly does it do?
I've just never understood what fluxing with a little wax, or a stick, could do to something as dense as lead. Not doubting anything just wondering what it does because if it will let me cast better round balls I'll give it a try.

Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread but your post reminded me that I was going to ask about it.

Tim

 

[scott taylor]

Usually I put the stick in the coffee can I dump my sprues into till it quits smoking. I have done the wax method with good results but this stick thing seems to realy work.
Now I don't think a green stick would be very wise.
Worst thing is (around here anyway)you can't get coffee in a metal cans anymore.

Scott

 

[scott taylor]

Fluxing just gets a lot of the crud out of the lead so it can be skimed off.

Scott

 

[necchi]

Where's Bill Nie the Science Guy when ya need'm?

I ain't a good explainer,

Even pure lead (that's available to the consumer market) has impurities, junk, slag, rust(oxidation). They're kinda all mixed in there and stuck in the mix.
Putting something in the molten lead that burns (adding carbon) and stirring it in quickly put these added carbon molecules in the mix and the impurities attach to the carbon and floats.
The floaty stuff can then be skimmed off as dross.

In essance, fluxing helps clean the junk out. Rust is the biggy I think, then add in just other handling and environmental stuff and lead gets dirty before you can melt it even if it was "pure" when it left the smelter.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I have no idea why or how it works but it certainly seems to. I put a little chunk of beeswax (or canning parafin) in the melt and as I stir it smokes and flares up and then the dross comes to the surface. I know when I worked at an iron and bronze foundry the same thing was done in huge furnaces where there was no way the agent (some kind of salt as I recall) was getting in very far - but it was done. Maybe it's just a deoxidation or some such at the surface?

If you do any silver soldering the difference between using resin and not is astonishing. Perhaps fluxing the lead is a similar process?

 

[Rifleman1776]

All you will do is burn a stick.
IMHO adding wax just makes a lot of smoke and make ye think ye are doing something great.
I quit adding 'flux' stuff years ago.
I now simply stir with a large spoon the skim the slag that comes to the top.
I'll match my cast balls with anyones.

 

[hanshi]

I'm a "non-fluxer" like Rifleman. Never saw the reason for it with pure lead. I get lots of impurities by just stirring well. I also don't mind a thin layer of dross on top of the molten lead; it helps keep the heat in and the oxygen out.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Ah. Pure lead is a concept I don't enjoy. Scrap plumber's lead flashings with rust, oakum and poop from old black iron pipe sewer fittings from torn-down houses is where most of my free lead comes from.

 

[Bill Hall]

I agree with Rifleman and Hanshi. I believe with all my heart that fluxing just has a placebo effect. I've been casting balls and sinkers since I was a young lad, and never had the need to put smokey stuff in my hot lead. I did try fluxing a couple of times with beewax, but all I got was a bunch of smoke, and no difference in the end product. I just cast a bunch of balls last week, out of reclaimed balls that I dug out of the dirt behind my target. The mix was about half dirt. I just melted it all down, skimmed off the crud, and the balls came out like normal, with the normal variance in weight.

In the past, I've tried to explain why fluxing cannot work, but got growled at by some of our members, so I'll just leave it alone after this post. I would like to throw down a challenge to to anyone who cares to try casting both ways though, with and without fluxing. I'll bet you find out I'm right.

Hey, it's all good. :thumbsup: The fluxers and anti-fluxers can still get along. :rotf: Bill

 

[mazo kid]

Scott, there are a lot of things you can use as flux: powdered charcoal, dry sawdust, wood shavings, oil, paraffin, beeswax, etc. As far as not using flux, yeah you might get SOME of the impurities out just by stirring, but stir some flux in the pot and see how much more stuff you get out. The pot may smoke some (that's why I have an old range hood, vented outside, above my pot) but when using my favorite (bees wax) I light a match above the pot and the smoke pretty much goes away. I flux more when reducing bulk chunks of lead so I can pour them into ingot molds, but also stir a pea size piece of beeswax in every pot full when casting.

 

[mack1]

I think a hickory stick works better than soft wood. Sawdust will also work I use it for cleaning dirty lead then use a stick or wax to flux before casting.

 

[Rifleman1776]

more stuff you get out

Fer sure more stuff out. Thets 'cause ye put junk in and burnt it. :wink:

 

[scott taylor]

Didn't realize this was such a controvercy. I will continue on and other camp has my permission to do the same. Maybe not to flux is OK for a round ball since they are such a ballisticly challenged projectile in the first place.
I respectfuly agree to disagree. And it does make me feel better to flux.

Scott

 

[t-buck]

dry wood in stick , sawdust, or shaving form does a very good job at fluxing the lead
i have been casting for years and that is all i use now to flux with
i find that it keeps my casting pots cleaner and there are no extra fumes to deal with other that the ones from the molten lead also very little smoke from it and no chance of it flaming up like the wax flux will
try it and i think you will like it
the way i use a stick is to stir the pot and scrape the sides to get any thing that is clinging to them to float loose
t-buck

 

[Idaho Ron]

I use dry pine sticks, motor oil, candle wax, crayon's.
When your melting pure virgin lead like from Rotometal the lead will turn blue, gold, green. This is lead oxidation not necessarily contaminants. You can keep stirring, fluxing, and skimming until all the lead is gone. There is nothing in the flux that will allow it to homogenize permanently. You can literally skim a pot of pure lead to nothing. What I do is melt the pure down. I use a stick and stir in motor oil or wax for flux. I scrape the bottom and sides well. After I do this I add a small amount of lead shot. Tin would also work too. I use reclaimed lead shot because I have so much of it. I add about 1000 grains of lead shot to about 10 pounds of pure. The tin in the lead shot homogenizes the melt. After that the colors will be gone for the most part. At that point I make my ingots. When I test these ingots after they are cool they are on the high side of 5 BHN so they are still for the most part soft as butter. When I started to do this I quit losing so much lead to skim off.
Once I have these ingots done I wait for them to cool and test them for hardness and mark them.

When I go to pour my bullets I pour some to get the temp up on the mould. I test these for hardness as soon as I can. I am looking for a hardness on my tester gauge of .038 to .042 this is gives me a bullet that after it sits for a while will be between .042 and .048 or about 7 to 8 BHN.

Consequently this makes my recipe the same hardness as lead pipe, roof jacks, and "old" Xray wall lead. I don't melt in the joints from lead pipe. They have solder in them. I melt them separate and keep them to melt back into the pure to homogenize the melt for my ingots some day when I run out of shot.
Ron

Ron

 

[Bill Hall]

more stuff you get out

Fer sure more stuff out. Thets 'cause ye put junk in and burnt it. :wink:

Oh my god Rifleman, that kinda makes sense! :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[mazo kid]

more stuff you get out

Fer sure more stuff out. Thets 'cause ye put junk in and burnt it. :wink:

Frank, I sure don't want to get in a "contest" here; you believe what you want and I'll do the same. Can we agree to disagree? :surrender: HOWEVER...I don't put 2 tablespoons of "stuff" in the pot that burns, yet that is what is released by stirring in flux after first stirring and skimming. Whatever, it sure does no harm to flux. And yeah, I can melt lead, do NO stirring and still get great round balls/bullets. The impurities are still in the lead though, and could affect weight for those that do highly accurate target shooting. Just the way I want to prepare my lead, YMMV.