"Follow through" when firing a Flintlocks

[Onojutta]

My post is not a post about business as usual follow-through that everybody already understands.
:wink:

I'm not sure I understand your comment there, but the title of your thread says "Follow through". The advice you are getting is good advice and it is really nothing more than fundamentals that apply to ALL shooting. As I've said countless times, if you apply the same principles to shooting a flintlock (concentrate on front sight post, be surprised when it fires), you will never see the pan flash. Not sure what you want to hear, but worrying about and paying attention to the pan flash or expecting a delayed ignition are probably the two main causes for troubled flintlock shooting. Shoot a flintlock just like a centerfire and forget about the pan and there should be no problem
:2

 

[Tom Compton]

Off hand shooting is great practice even for those who plan to shoot from a rest. Offhand shooters can shoot well from the bench but bench shooters lag behind when it comes to off hand. Believe it was Bill Jordan who said he does half his pistol practice using the weak hand. Doesn't plan on having to shoot lefty but you never can tell.

Besides dry firing, firing pan powder only etc, try using a pellet rifle at 10 meters. Total time from sear break to projectile exiting the barrel is about the same as on a flintlock. A pellet pistol or a flint pistol will teach you to follow thru or forever be lucky to hit the target anywhere.

The "Surprise" shot is for those improving their shooting. Firing between heart beats is on another level.

TC

 

[J.D.]

Without a doubt the best method of shooting any gun- flintlock, percussion, centerfire, rifle, pistol, etc. is to let the the gun surprise you when it goes off.

Like Mr. Williams, I don't always want any surprises when I'm ready to fire. There are times when a controlled jerk is necessary to get off a quick shot, as when hunting. Follow through is still necessary, but surprise isn't.

That said, when target shooting, constant, gentle pressure on the trigger until the shot is released is the ideal situation. However, I have trained myself for the controlled jerk, utilizing follow through, for quick shots.

 

My post is not a post about business as usual follow-through that everybody already understands.
:wink:

Okay, let's all play a game...

What is your post about? :shake:

 

[Deadeye]

As yet, no hand held gun has been invented that
that doesn't require folow through. I follow through the same way with a .220 Swift or a flintlock. A controlled PULL, Yes, a controlled
JERK, No.

 

[musketman]

From time to time I see posts about practicing "follow through" with a Flintlock. I can only assume they must be referring to shooting older, maybe more crude, slower firing Flintlocks that have a lot of delay in the ignition sequence...with the intent of the practice being able to learn how to hold fairly steady on the target while waiting for the ignition to occur and get the ball out of the barrel.

Following through is good, of course leading the target helps too. :wink: :grin:

 

[roundball]

My post is not a post about business as usual follow-through that everybody already understands.
:wink:

I'm not sure I understand your comment there, but the title of your thread says "Follow through". The advice you are getting is good advice and it is really nothing more than fundamentals that apply to ALL shooting. As I've said countless times, if you apply the same principles to shooting a flintlock (concentrate on front sight post, be surprised when it fires), you will never see the pan flash. Not sure what you want to hear, but worrying about and paying attention to the pan flash or expecting a delayed ignition are probably the two main causes for troubled flintlock shooting. Shoot a flintlock just like a centerfire and forget about the pan and there should be no problem
:2

Thanks...but thats just basic stuff that everybody knows...and I've been shooting Flintlocks year round for about 10 years now, got it, etc.

There's very little space for the title of a post and I tried to make the distinction in the actual post text...must not have been clear enough so I'll try again.

Of all the posts over all the years...that include discussions about a broad range of firearms...when dicsussing Flintlocks, there seems to be an inordinate / dis-proportional number of times that "follow-through" is mentioned in regards to Flintlocks compared to others...then see the question in my opening post, etc

 

[Onojutta]

Without a doubt the best method of shooting any gun- flintlock, percussion, centerfire, rifle, pistol, etc. is to let the the gun surprise you when it goes off.

My personal thoughts, reflecting my personal experience and training: Surprise is the LAST thing I want popping up in the middle of a shooting solution.

My rifle will fire PRECISELY when I command it to. I can't/won't submit something so critical to whims of the Universe, games of chance, voodoo, etc.

Calculating the settling of the sights between heartbeats is a good example. If the shot is a surprise, how do you know the weapon will discharge when you are in a relaxed state?

This is not offered in any way as a reproach, BTW, just an alternate concept of the way things can be done. In other words, think about it...

As always, YMMV.

You raise some very good questions...

When you think of a gun going off as a surprise, that does sound a bit haphazard and almost irresponsible doesn't it.

But you have to understand the surprise I am talking about. It is a controlled, expected surprise. It's not just closing your eyes, holding your breath, being scared by the blast that you don't know when is coming.

You asked about controlling breath... That all comes with practice, learnig your rifle and trigger. You need to time the pressure increase on the trigger with your breathing so the gun fires precisely when your sight post is at the exhale point. Even though you get the feel of how much pressure to apply, because you are concentrating on the sight picture and breathing, and not paying attention to pan flash or expecting the kick, the firing comes as a "surprise".

Basically, I say all this to differentiate from just yanking the trigger to make the gun go off all in one sudden motion. I don't care who you are, the second your brain consciously sends the signal to your finger to pull the trigger in one motion, your reflexes will kick in and expect a reaction.

I try to apply the same technique hunting or at the range. First of all, any gun that you hunt with you should shoot exactly the same way at the range. In hunting situations with your heart racing and your fingers half frozen, you need to fall back on automatic consistency. But then again, I can't testify to hunting situatons because I have never killed a deer. Sure it's a lot hard in the field, but a patient, disciplined shot must be taken just like at the range.

Anyway, this is how I was taught in the military and what works for me. Of couse, if yanking the trigger impulsively works for you, by all means yank away. :wink:

 

[Onojutta]

Of all the posts over all the years...that include discussions about a broad range of firearms...when dicsussing Flintlocks, there seems to be an inordinate / dis-proportional number of times that "follow-through" is mentioned in regards to Flintlocks compared to others...then see the question in my opening post, etc

I get it. You want to talk about swimming without mentioning water. "Follow through" is fundamental, and you got responses about fundamentals.

 

[Claude Mathis]

...when dicsussing Flintlocks, there seems to be an inordinate / dis-proportional number of times that "follow-through" is mentioned in regards to Flintlocks compared to others...

Perhaps because people tend to flinch more when shooting a flintlock, so it's more important to emphasize the follow-through? Just a guess.

 

[bingo1952]

From time to time I see posts about practicing "follow through" with a Flintlock. I can only assume they must be referring to shooting older, maybe more crude, slower firing Flintlocks that have a lot of delay in the ignition sequence...with the intent of the practice being able to learn how to hold fairly steady on the target while waiting for the ignition to occur and get the ball out of the barrel.

But I also see the same suggestions being made with respect to shooting the typical Flintlock manufactured today, given that today's Flintlock quality produces virtually instantaneous ignition.

:hmm: :hmm:

I don't even see a question only broad general statements. I guess that is why you haven't heard what you wanted to hear. Don't be so cryptic. :nono:

 

[musketman]

Perhaps because people tend to flinch more when shooting a flintlock, so it's more important to emphasize the follow-through? Just a guess.

If I remember correctly, back in the golden era of the flintlocks black powder was not as efficient as today's standards dictate, in my opinion the art of following through the shot was more important then because of the inconsistency of powder from batch to batch.

Longer barrels were employed to extract every last ounce of push from the earlier powder formulas, so holding on target was of great virtue. Today's powders are perfectly formulated and mixed for the most reliable ignition and performance.

 

[smallmouth]

Roundball,
You sure got the joint jumpin' :thumbsup: If the forum ever goes "talk" radio -- you've got my vote for host!
Now my two cents. There are certain "rules" to good shooting technique. However some of the best (baseball hitters, golfers, shotgunners etc.) break some of these "rules" The ONLY thing that really holds forth is can you ALWAYS reproduce that form of yours so you do it the SAME time after time, and at your command. Fred Bear legendary archer, jump shot. A friend of mine many years ago with quite a Parkinson's tremor out shot me all the time. Plainly said few of us shoot often enough to really get to our potential.
Sirjohn

 

[J.D.]

Anyway, this is how I was taught in the military and what works for me. Of couse, if yanking the trigger impulsively works for you, by all means yank away. :wink:

You mentioned that you were trained to shoot this way in the military. I was too, however, I received more in depth training when competing on the Mo NG state high power rifle team. I also trained at the NG Marksmanship training falicity in Nashville and successfully competed at several Army regional matches, as well as winning my share at the All Army Matches at Fort Benning.

The ideal is to let the shot be a surprise, however that isn't always possible. I learned the CONTROLLED jerk for rapid fire events. The shot is still somewhat of a surprise, but pressure on the trigger is more aggressively applied.

Slowing down to allow the shot to be a full surprise won't cut it when a six man team is firing 385 rounds, at eight full silhouette targets, in less than 4 minutes, at 600 yards, as in the Infantry Trophy match, aka the "Rattle Battle." And that was after a mile run. Almost gotta be a masochist to compete in some of those events.
:hmm:

That CONTROLLED jerk is also useful when shooting timed events at ML shoots. A "rattle box" will blow your mind if you let it, as will seeing the sand drain out of an hour glass egg timer as you are firing your last shot of that timed string.

The CONTROLLED jerk is also necessary when hunting. Mind you this is not a haphazard jerk, but an intentionally controlled, aggressive application of pressure to the trigger.

Kinda like the old gunfighter adage of taking your time in a hurry.

God bless,
J.D.

 

[DCF]

Just to underwrite the previous posts, in my view, follow through was about maintaining your hold through the shot development and to reduce anticipation of the release. This is in order to ensure you didn’t start to drop the gun minutely before the trigger had been released. As well as let the shot clear the barrel.

You also gain valuable feed back from the position of the muzzle, recoil angle and displacement and so correct errors on subsequent shots. Quite key, when you can’t rattle another shot down that quickly afterwards.

It also allows more accurate assessment of wind ”“ you can pluck out the technical problems rather than have mix of errors plus wind.

The effects of which are all amplified by a slightly slower and less consistent shot development time.

Also:
There are two main ways of successfully delivering a shot ”“ you can hold and squeeze at anytime during that phase the shot is released ”“ these types of shooter are referred to as “holders”
The other type may have a slightly looser hold and within that hold pick the optimum time to release the shot ”“ these types are called “optimisers” (p.s. that’s not a poke-and-hope shot or a reaction to an unstable hold it’s choosing an optimum time within a good hold)

The relatively slower speed of ignition but moreover the inconsistency of its speed (in comparison with other ignition types) means flint shooters would be advised to develop a “holder” type approach to aiming to alleviate the timing issue which naturally tends to link to extended follow through.

Another additional reason for the “holder” type approach is that the movement of the cock and frizzen moves the gun prior to the shot leaving the gun ”“ if this happens as a part of a linear poke-at-it kind of release the final resting place of the muzzle as the shot leaves will be wildly different.

This comes from extensive use of Scatt and Noptel electronic training systems....and quite conveniently explains why I am rubbish with the flintlock.

Yes, I know I ought to get out more.

 

[Onojutta]

You mentioned that you were trained to shoot this way in the military. I was too, however, I received more in depth training when competing on the Mo NG state high power rifle team.

You don't know how indepth my training was.

The ideal is to let the shot be a surprise, however that isn't always possible. I learned the CONTROLLED jerk for rapid fire events...Slowing down to allow the shot to be a full surprise won't cut it when a six man team is firing 385 rounds, at eight full silhouette targets, in less than 4 minutes, at 600 yards, as in the Infantry Trophy match, aka the "Rattle Battle." And that was after a mile run. Almost gotta be a masochist to compete in some of those events.

We're talking controlled flintlock muzzleloader shooting here, not semi-automatic rapid fire M16A2s.
:slap:

The CONTROLLED jerk is also necessary when hunting. Mind you this is not a haphazard jerk, but an intentionally controlled, aggressive application of pressure to the trigger.

Now we're getting into symantics. "You say potatoe, I say potahtoe". Sounds like what I call a "surprise" you call a "controlled jerk." The point is the same.

Kinda like the old gunfighter adage of taking your time in a hurry.

Now that statement I will agree with. :thumbsup:

Whatever you do, stay away from UNCONTROLLED jerks. My wife will be happy to testify to that.

 

[bingo1952]

It all sounds like pulling the trigger in a controlled fashion rather than a gentle squeeze that most people use when on a bench. Not quite a shotgunners slap but definitely faster than a squeeze.

 

[tg]

Such a bunch of attitude should be reserved for the modern ML stuff...........

 

[Len Graves]

As I understand it, follow through is; Attempting to stay in the same position on the gun after the shot as you were before the shot. Keeping your cheek to the comb or cheek piece, your eye in relation to the sights and pulling the trigger without changing this position. Attempt to stay in this position even after recoil. This is not as easy as said. The anticipating recoil (flinching) can change your sight picture as well as your position on the gun. This as I said is my understanding of follow through and it is as important to flintlocks as modern firearms.

 

My post is not a post about business as usual follow-through that everybody already understands.
:wink:

Okay, let's all play a game...

What is your post about? :shake:

Wow, 38 responses to a non-issue. I even got suckered into it myself.

There's no question being asked here, only a vague comment, of sorts.

"Follow-through" is important and it had nothing to do with flintlocks. Period. End of story.