Food for thought on smaller calibers for hunting big game.

[BJHabermehl]

There is a major statistical difference between small caliber round balls and large caliber round balls when traveling down range. You can verify it with a book like the Lyman black powder handbook, 1st ed. a 36 caliber ball loses approximately 64% of it's muzzle velocity by the time it reaches 100 yds. A 40 caliber ball loses approximately 60% A 45 caliber ball loses about 55%, a 50 caliber round ball loses about 50% a 58 caliber round ball loses about 42% of it's muzzle velocity at 100 yds. There is some variation depending on charges, etc, balls moving faster than sound tend to lose more velocity by 100 yds the faster they start out.. This inverse proportion is not a hard rule, but is close to the trend if you examine the velocities in the book.

Now I don't believe for a second that ft pounds of energy down range is the end all, but since energy is a factor of velocity squared, the smaller the ball, the more energy loss by 100 yds. A 58 caliber ball not only packs more energy, it makes a hole 3 or 4 times the size of a 40 caliber hole. ie more blood loss and shock. Better chance of an immediate kill and certainly a better chance of a blood trail.

Some people like to compare it to fishing and using 2 pound test line. The difference is if the fish breaks the line, it gets away barely injured. Better than a mammal dying days later of sepsis from being gut shot.

I owe it to the game to kill as quickly as possible. That can mean only close well placed shots or somewhat less well placed at greater distance with something still likely to kill.

I don't know how good a marksman a person is. No doubt some could take an elk with a 32 caliber. But by far, most could not. If I were to be fortunate enough for a large game hunt, I would want every advantage possible. A moderate hunting load in a 54 or 58 caliber does that for me without sacrificing accuracy..

I’ve hunted with .45 cal flintlocks. I’ve had lost game due to no blood trails. I built a .58 cal English park rifle, it eventually harvested. More deer than my entire armory, including modern unmentionable arms. Never since having had a challenging tracking job. All but one has succumbed within sight of the spot where it was shot. That one slid downhill 50 yds out of sight. I am a hunter that advocates use enough gun.

 

[appalichian hunter]

Big bore=big hole, big hole= better loss of blood and more structural damage if a rib or shoulder blade is hit, kind of like the old pistol gun fight rule, never go to a gun fight with a pistol where the caliber doesn't start with a 4, the 50s are nice the 54s are better and the 62s well like I said big hole lots of blood. Now if your deer are the size of collie dogs the 40s and 45s should suffice as long as you do your part.

 

[smokepolehall]

Big bore=big hole, big hole= better loss of blood and more structural damage if a rib or shoulder blade is hit, kind of like the old pistol gun fight rule, never go to a gun fight with a pistol where the caliber doesn't start with a 4, the 50s are nice the 54s are better and the 62s well like I said big hole lots of blood. Now if your deer are the size of collie dogs the 40s and 45s should suffice as long as you do your part.

LOL, you should have told that to Hickok with his gunfight at Ft. Smith , Ar

 

[TTT]

Its interesting the feed back we get here. from my experience I dont hesitate to hunt deer with a .45 cal as over 90% of them have dropped in their tracks ( center shoulder shots ) and the few others have dropped with in 60 yards or so. Thank you to everyone who has participated thus far, and look forward to future comments as well.

 

[SOLANCO]

As appalichian hunter said above: "as long as you do your part". The following has to do with unmentionables, but the information is relevant to this discussion.

Karamojo Bell was a professional elephant hunter who killed 1,011 elephants in his career. 800 of them were taken with a .275 Rigby. The largest caliber rifle he owned was a .450/.400 double.

in American Rifleman magazine in an article on bore size:
"Bell’s philosophy in hunting was that the rifleman must have a good knowledge of the anatomy of the game they are after and thus that he/she will not press trigger unless sure of their bullet placement and thus an instant humane kill. ' Early in his career he dissected elephant skulls to study the best points of aim.

 

[smokepolehall]

As we have seen in the posts on this Topic, there appears to be a line. Those that like n use mid cal's n those that like the bigger cal's. People really choose what they like n then try to find data to back them up ! Traditional covers a very broad range, so one can't say that is not traditional in the projectile used. Take the . 40 cal most will use a prb, others will use a conical. There are those that will say what i just typed on the .40 is not traditional , ahh but it is. Not many here have the original Flintlocks from the 1700's n if they do most would not fire it because it may lose value. I don't do Wall hangers in my home, it earns its keep or goes down the road. Most of the time i just look at those Longarms, cause i don't have the samolians it takes to let it collect dust. Why do those whom own n shoot the bigger cal's like to tell those who use smaller ones you can't kill a deer or bear with that. Like the dia. of the projectile does the deed. If you can shoot you can kill game animals with any of them. I prefer the . 40 n the .45. They have plenty of power, its up to the hunter to put the lead in the correct place to cleanly kill it.

 

[SOLANCO]

Double posted sorry

 

[ronaldrothb49]

First off I will say I am 73 years old so the last thing I want to do is to try dragging a deer a quarter mile out of the woods. In my opinion the deadliest caliber is the one you are most accurate. Too many think that a larger caliber will make up for a lack of shot placement. If you cannot put the projectile in the kill zone it doesn't matter.

 

[smoothshooter]

A double lung shot from a comfortable shooting .45 is better than a rump shot from a flinch induced by a .58.

But what if it is not a rump shot but one that is a little OUTSIDE the lung area




I am a big .45 fan also, but i’ll admit the larger calibers give a little better margin for error if the shooter jerks the shot, or the animal takes a step just as the trigger breaks.

 

[smoothshooter]

Lt James Forsyth addressed this same question in his “Sporting Rifles and Their Projectiles”, a slim book that summed up the challenges of different black powder projectiles. He compared the new Minie slug and other elongated lead bullets to the round ball. Trajectory, range, striking power and results on flesh and bone etc were all analyzed. For hunting pretty much everything in India, Forsyth concluded that nothing could beat the round ball at sporting ranges up to 200 yards. It’s pretty interesting to see the same discussion today, albeit with some different projectiles included. Funny how in the 160 years since Forsyth’s book, sportsmen still face the same challenges. Forsyth did not anticipate smokeless powders or hypervelocity small projectiles with huge shock value. I don’t know if any of these modern systems would have moved him away from the round ball, because he was a sportsman giving wild game animals a sporting chance. He put real value on fieldcraft, and he was not sniping them from six hundred yards away. Seems to me the people on this website are cut in the mold of Lt Forsyth. We like challenging ourselves and meeting the animals on their own territory. I can admire and respect this spirit of the hunter. It’s a real antidote to an unfortunate trend with modern arms and optics.

I used to have a copy of Forsyth’s book.
IIRC, he liked 14 gauge double guns the best, rifled and smoothbore, mostly smoothbore, loaded with balls patched and unpatched. Used single barreled guns on occasion too. His extensive experience led him to believe that while the minnie-style bullets penetrated well, they didn’t deliver shock to the animal like large caliber balls ahead of heavy powder charges did.
He was an advocate of getting in close, and since he hunted in Indian jungles a lot ( but not exclusively ), that was a little easier to do.

 

[smoothshooter]

I was with a friend when he shot a nice buck with is .45 long rifle and 70 grains of BP. The Buck limped around for a while in a corn field. The RB probably hit a rib and didn't have enough power to punch through for a killing shot. Deer here in Ohio are large bodied animals. I tracked the deer to the edge of a river where he jumped in and was washed downstream to never to be seen again. That turned me off to using a .45 for deer hunting. I have a .40 just for target shooting. That diminutive RB I don't feel has the humane power to effectively take deer. The .40 would make a dandy turkey gun if that was allowed here in Ohio. Minimum of 50 caliber, and the 54 is better. The .54 is probably the best caliber minimum.
Ohio Rusty ><>

What was the range?

 

[pamtnman]

I used to have a copy of Forsyth’s book.
IIRC, he liked 14 gauge double guns, rifled and smoothbore, loaded with patched ball loads. Used single barreled guns on occasion too.
He was an advocate of getting in close, and since he hunted in Indian jungles a lot ( but not exclusively ), that was a little easier to do.

Right on! Forsyth advocates the round ball for all hunting, because it will always be in contact with the rifling, and he also makes a big distinction between a military arm and a hunting weapon. His second edition is from 1867, when breech loading pinfires had debuted, and he still preferred the shallow, slow rifling with a big charge of powder and a heavy ball. He also made it clear that he preferred hunting wild game to assassinating it from long distances. Probably everyone reading this prefers to have respectable wood craft skill first before sniping our prey at 400 yards.

 

[Ohio Rusty]

What was the range?

About 40 yards.

 

[smoothshooter]

As appalichian hunter said above: "as long as you do your part". The following has to do with unmentionables, but the information is relevant to this discussion.

Karamojo Bell was a professional elephant hunter who killed 1,011 elephants in his career. 800 of them were taken with a .275 Rigby. The largest caliber rifle he owned was a .450/.400 double.

in American Rifleman magazine in an article on bore size:
"Bell’s philosophy in hunting was that the rifleman must have a good knowledge of the anatomy of the game they are after and thus that he/she will not press trigger unless sure of their bullet placement and thus an instant humane kill. ' Early in his career he dissected elephant skulls to study the best points of aim.

 

[smoothshooter]

I you research Bell a little further, you will find multiple contemporary references from people who knew him well that commented on how skinny he was and how well he could maintain a run and fast trot for miles on end in the often sweltering heat because he did it so often while chasing down wounded animals shot with one of his small caliber rifles.

 

[Kmcmichael]

I killed a deer with a .50 PRB this year. It was fine. I am going to get a .54 for next year. Merely because I want another Flintlock and it will be a bit lighter. My Nephew has a tracking dog that is showing promise. At some point, if the dog progresses, I will use my .40 on a deer at close range.

 

[Blitz]

I think that was Robert Ruark, he wrote a book with that title.

I believe you are correct, I read many of his writings.

Buzz

 

[smokepolehall]

But what if it is not a rump shot but one that is a little OUTSIDE the lung area



?
I am a big .45 fan also, but i’ll admit the larger calibers give a little better margin for error if the shooter jerks the shot, or the animal takes a step just as the trigger breaks.

Then your a very poor shot n need to shoot targets

 

[smoothshooter]

Then your a very poor shot n need to shoot targets

I have always been a very good shot, on game and in competition.
I have only killed about 15 deer, but I never wounded one or had one get away, and pass up shots with modern guns and muzzleloaders that most people would take.
Was on winning teams and often High Individual in various Army competition disciplines from Combat Rifle to High Power 600 yard matches. Offhand was my strong suit. Would probably have gotten my Highpower Master card if I had fired one more match, but a new Army National Guard Marksmanship Coordinator got nervous about having all those government guns out on Hand Receipts and made all of us turn them in. Almost all team members quit in anger.
Grew up shooting small game and hundreds of groundhogs and tens of thousands ( yes, that many ) of pest birds from age 8 several days a week for years. Occasionally a feral dog that was chasing cattle thru barbed wire fences, and ripping up baby calves and cows.
Since I am getting old, I am not quite as good a day now and then as I once was, but I can assure you I am still WAY ahead of the curve.

 

[smokepolehall]

I have always been a very good shot, on game and in competition.
I have only killed about 15 deer, but I never wounded one or had one get away, and pass up shots with modern guns and muzzleloaders that most people would take.
Was on winning teams and often High Individual in various Army competition disciplines from Combat Rifle to High Power 600 yard matches. Offhand was my strong suit. Would probably have gotten my Highpower Master card if I had fired one more match, but a new Army National Guard Marksmanship Coordinator got nervous about having all those government guns out on Hand Receipts and made all of us turn them in. Almost all team members quit in anger.
Grew up shooting small game and hundreds of groundhogs and tens of thousands ( yes, that many ) of pest birds from age 8 several days a week for years. Occasionally a feral dog that was chasing cattle thru barbed wire fences, and ripping up baby calves and cows.
Since I am getting old, I am not quite as good a day now and then as I once was, but I can assure you I am still WAY ahead of the curve.

I did not ask you all of that sir ! What i did say is if the shooter can't keep their projectile in the lungs . That is a fairly large area they need to get closer or shoot at targets. Shooting targets allows a person to learn how far they can shoot with support. Now you should not take offence at the answer as it was not at you personally. It was to the ? you posted as anyone would be the shooter ! I stand by my answer practice & if a person can not hit a 9"x12" set of lungs. Get closer n practice