Forestock shaping

[Davemuzz]

I'm working on shaping the forestock of my Leman pre-shaped (not pre-carved) stock. As the stock comes "factory" from TOTW, the rails were to high and the RR channel was to deep. So, I have trimmed both the rail tops and the RR channel of the stock down.

Now I'm shaping the forestock, and following "The Gunsmith of Grenville" I have marked off the upper forestock 1/3 for the top, and 2/3 for the bottom so that I can shape the upper rails from the top to the mark, and the bottom from the RR channel edge to the mark.

For some reason I'm having a "time" visualizing how the bottom 2/3 should "look." In TGOG book, the author shows where he's actually made the area from the RR channel edge to the 2/3 mark flat. He then goes on and rounds this section.

Now, if you look at my pic's below you can see where I've started the lower part of the upper forestock shaping. I'm shaping this using my files in a "draw file" method (as instructed in TGOG) and this method works well. I've studied many pictures of forestock's so that I can visualize how it should look. (That doesn't seem to help me get this)

Right now the lower end of the upper forestock looks to "fat." But....I fear that if I continue filing that bulge area down......I will get one very awful looking upper forestock. Yeah.....it's a visual I can't seem to grasp.

So....more wood removal or draw-filing of the "fat round" section?

Thanks much....you fellows are great.

Dave

 

[Zonie]

I don't know if it will help but the forend shapes on longrifles seem to come in two basic shapes.

One is an ellipse, like a 0 laying on its side with the long axis pointing right/left from the barrel.

The other is rather triangular or heart shaped with the pointed part of the heart pointed towards the bottom where the ramrod groove is.

It seems you are working on a heart shape on your gun which will suit it well.

 

[Dane]

Your forestock should taper to a very narrow edge at the rr channel, as well as the barrel channel.
You gotta put that fat girl on a diet.
Use the ⅓ and ½ dimensions from your book, and taper it to the thin edges on both sides.
I've never seen the Greenville book, but it must have some photos of a properly shaped fore end.

 

[Black Hand]

Maybe 1/16th at the sides of the barrel channel and (almost) a knife-edge at the RR channel. All the rest needs to be slimmed more...

 

[Dane]

Your forestock should taper to a very narrow edge at the rr channel, as well as the barrel channel.
You gotta put that fat girl on a diet.
Use the ⅓ and ½ dimensions from your book, and taper it to the thin edges on both sides.
I've never seen the Greenville book, but it must have some photos of a properly shaped fore end.

 

[Davemuzz]

The book shows a few views of the forestock "in progress" but not a close up view of the end product. I like the Grenville book, but there are some areas where it comes up short. A page of front and side views of the forestock (actual photos....not drawings) would be helpful.

I'm more of a visual learner than one who can read and obtain a picture of what the author is saying.

 

[rich pierce]

Do I see a nosecap? That usually closely matches forestock shape.

 

[Eric Krewson]

Go to Track and buy the full sized plans, they give you a cutaway of different places in the stock and how they should be shaped.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/304/3/PLAN-LEMAN

 

[apachesx2]

I have dabbled with T/C decades ago and just got custom kit myself... I have the Greenville County as well plus the Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle which is more basic and to the point... I too am more visual and have DVD's as well... I have Hershel House's building a Kentucky Rifle; The James Turpin series; and Carving and Engraving by Jack Brooks... There are even good Youtube videos for free like from the Duelist who step by step build TOW kit series and once in a while takes a short cut... Then we have under Gun Builders section Fusil-de-Chasse by billraby who is enjoyable to follow along with... Some are more detailed and some dive in and go with the force by having decades worth of experience... Every time I watch them I pick up something new...

 

[54ball]

The illustrations in the Grenville book are good. You just have to know the context to ..... get it.
You have to have the ( eye) and know what the illustrations represent. Otherwise it can be a struggle.

I developed my eye through years of study. With a little bit of an artistic background it was easier for me to get.
It took me years of studying photos.... shadows.... shapes... figuring what the shape really is rather than what it looks in a photo.

Those years of study to get the eye can be accomplished by handling an original for 10 minutes!

Example JP Beck.
His guns photo heavy. They tend to photo bulbous and robust.
Even experienced builders are quite surprised when they handle a Beck.

That big heavy looking Lancaster/ Lebanon is in hand....
Light....Dainty.....almost Delicate.
Plans and cross sections help a lot too.

Your problem right now is this....
Your forestock is too wide.

With it too wide and trying to round it into shape.... It does not match Mr. Alexanders illustrations.

The fattest portion of the lower forestock is 1/8 off the side flat.
The fattest portion of the upper forstock is 1/16 off the barrel flat.

On both the fattest portion of the stock is that 1/3 line down from the barrel rail. Above that 1/3 line it is rounded and feathered into the barrel flat with maybe just a mill or knife edge of flat against the barrel.

Below that 1/3 line it tapers down to the ramrod groove. At first this will give a V or heart shape. This matches the Grenville illustrations. Then this raw V is rounded and feathered.

In short you started working your stock too fat. You can do that but it takes a long long time to get the proper shape.

I thin my Stocks in the square.... that 1/8...that 1/16. I then draw my 1/3 line and shape the forestock.

 

[Davemuzz]

Go to Track and buy the full sized plans, they give you a cutaway of different places in the stock and how they should be shaped.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/304/3/PLAN-LEMAN[/quote]

Ya know Eric.....I've looked at those plans several times and did not buy 'em 'cause I didn't think they gave enough "views." So, I clicked your provided link again, then zoomed in on the plans......and WHA-LA!!!...The plans show the cross-section of each part of the stock!! An answer to my question!! Thanks!!

OTOH....the TOTW photo of the rifle shows the wood shaped around the entry pipe as.....well.....not what I've seen on other Leman pics and frankly, I don't like the style of the TOTW. It looks "blunt".

Do I see a nosecap? That usually closely matches forestock shape.

Yes......There is a nose cap on the front. And that's great.......for the front. But there's also the cross-section in front of the entry pipe, right behind the entry pipe, front of the lock panels, wrist, and halfway point of the buttstock. Now for me......THAT's a visual.

BTW.....I have thinned my forestock down to .110. Now, 1\16" is .0625 which is .0475 thinner than where my forestock presently sits. I have yet to sand with up to 220 grit paper and I think that may\will remove just a tad more wood.

In the Grenville Book, the author states to take the side plates down to 1/8" or .125. Now, on my first pass I took the forestock sides down to .125.....and thought that was just a bit to thick. So, I took it down a little more and was "happy" with that result. I also removed some wood from the top of the RR channel. Now that I've done that....(shaved down the RR channel "top") I have more forestock wood to remove than if I would have left it alone. It would have looked fatter......had I let it stay in the pre-shaped form.

The above pic's are not showing a finished job.....but an in-progress job. I have much more wood to remove from the lower and upper forestock at this point. But now I have a visual (Thanks Eric) to refer to.

I sincerely thank all who post. It always gives me more information to add to the memory banks!! (Albeit those memory banks don't always function like I want 'em to!!)

BTW & FWIW, I have yet to see a picture of a Leman that shows the stock going "thinner" right at...and forward of the entry pipe. I know there are other rifles that have this pattern, but I haven't seen this on the Leman.

 

[rich pierce]

The Grenville book gives rules as though all guns are the same. That is why I can recognize a Peter Alexander rifle without the signature.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Paraphrasing Wallace Gussler (I think), thin down the wood along the forestock until you are scared, and then take off more wood. Here are some examples.

dave

 

[Davemuzz]

Yeah Dave......those forestocks are in the area of "scary thin." :hmm: :grin:

 

[Pete G]

I think I read somewhere that Lemans use a triangular fore end. Makes sense since these were trade guns and were designed to be inexpensive to build. Less shaping means less work.

 

[Davemuzz]

Yes. As Zonie pointed out above the upper forestock is the "V" or heart shape. As you move back to the lock plate, the "V" there is a bit "fatter" for use of a better word.

 

[54ball]

I have given this some thought...
Lemans/ Conestogas were built for what.....40 years?
No 2 were exactly alike yet they all favor.
Just about any conventional feature you'll find on an American longrifle if any type.... you'll find it on a Leman.
Nose caps.....
Round
Grooved round
V'ed
Grooved V'ed
None
End band
Band a couple of inches back
Same with forestocks
Round
V'ed
A little thicker especially on late ones.
So keep up the good work.

 

[Davemuzz]

Thank you 54Ball. I know I'm asking a pile of ?'s, but you guys have been really helpful. I'm striving to have the completed project come out well and I don't want to rush it, nor make only half an effort when putting in all the effort will make such a nicer piece.

Dave

 

[Eric Krewson]

I use one of these contour gages when I am trying to even shapes up side to side, like rounding a wrist on a rifle and have it even on both sides.

 

[Davemuzz]

Ok gent's....I've shaped the bottom section of the upper forestock and you can hopefully see my progress in these pic's. I still want\need to blend in the front section to the nose cap with a longer taper.

For now, I'm going to take a break from working on the stock. I'm just at the point of it turning into "work" and not "fun." I think a few days or more off will bring me back to the fun part.

But anyway.....what do you think? Remove more wood? (Just when I think I've removed enough......I got more to remove!!)

BTW....when I was inletting the barrel underlugs I was careful to NOT break thru to the RR channel. Yeah.....except for the front one where I dug a little to deep.

Thanks!!