French Fusils

[tg]

"I have a question. Did the trade guns prior to 1690 have round faced locks?"

The guns in Lenks book from the mid 17th century show mostly round locks with some flat,most of these are high art guns but typicaly the basics were similar in most guns of a period. Others may shed more light on this, I think it was around the first part of the 18th century that flat locks became the norm so one would expect for a time before that round was the rule.

 

This is a great discussion, kinda like the one on RCA #42 on the ALR site. I've got all three books mentioned , but only Bouchard's with me. I would recommend anyone interested get all three. I've also got an old Centermark, just waiting for me to get at, about three projects down the road..I can't switch the Maple ot French Walnut, but the rest of making it more authentic, shouldn't be too bad. I've been stuck away from home with my wife at the Mayo Clinic for almost forty days, and this site, and the ALR one is my sanity. Thanks guys.

Bill

I started with nothing, and still have most of it left!

 

[benvenuto]

(from memory)
1650's lockplates straight and flat with bevelled edges at the rear and quite long

1660's the rear part of the lockplate began to be rounded but the front was kept flat

1670's the lockplate is rounded all over but still fairly straight, Tail is pointed downwards but small

1680's fully developed Louis XIV style, curved lockplate round all over

late 1690's - flat locks made again, but round locks continue to be used on muskets, boucaniers, and fusils de chasse until about 1710 ( see Bouchard)

http://www.lanouvelle-france.com/fusils/markings.htm

 

[benvenuto]

I think I am finally ready to start on one of these after i get my tax refund. :applause:

I was going to go with the TOTW kit in (american) walnut, 44" barrel, cal .58, steel fittings (possibly with pipes from TRS - I think that was Henrys suggestion).

My only puzzle is the lock. I know none of them are correct, but I am prepared to work on that. Should I get the (Davis?) Tulle lock that is offered pre-inlet with the kit, or get somthing else like the Chambers "Early Ketland" or the L&R "Early Trade"?

 

[Henry]

" one of those " you mean a 1690 ?

 

[benvenuto]

Well, i would like a 1690's fusil de chasse but I don't think I will find a precarve with a round lock and "queue de serpent" butt plate :haha:

For now i will be content with a 1720's-on fusil de chasse until I improve my gunstocking skills :winking:

I saw some nice ones at the Musee Stewart last year but the light was too low in there to take any photos.

 

[tg]

I would get the Davis Tulle lock and modify it for a gun of the the 1720-1730ish period, the L&R trade lock would be my choice for a 1745 or so gun, the Davis lock just has a bit earlier look to my eye,and the modifications are pretty simple.

 

[Mike Brooks]

So, what do you fellows think about this lock?
http://www.redaviscompany.com/1121.html

 

[Tommy Bruce]

Mike, I think it's pretty cool. Please bear with my ignorance when I ask this question? Are you saying it would work on a French gun like the guys are talking about?

 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike, I think it's pretty cool. Please bear with my ignorance when I ask this question? Are you saying it would work on a French gun like the guys are talking about?

Sure, no problemo.

 

I would get the Davis Tulle lock and modify it for a gun of the the 1720-1730ish period, the L&R trade lock would be my choice for a 1745 or so gun, the Davis lock just has a bit earlier look to my eye,and the modifications are pretty simple.

tg, you have said as much several times before, but I cannot understand why you say that? The L&R lock may or may not be the equal in quality to the Davis--I won't debate that--but it looks much like the older locks (pre 1740s) that I have seen pictured. And it needs no modifications, whereas the Davis needs modifications. Look at the Nouvelle France site that has the trade guns and knives, etc. and Bouchard...

 

[benvenuto]

very interesting... :hmm:

I've been looking at Bouchard, but correct me if I am wrong...
-the spring would need to be "made plain"
-the taper on the rear of the lockplate would need to be made more abrupt
-perhaps a little more cosmetic work to the tip of the cock?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Davis lock that Mike Brooks referred to:

Source:

1690 French lock, fusil origina unknown - Robert Speelman collection

Source: NOTE: The source link shows no less than 8 circa 1690 French locks.

Noticeable features:
* Typical "banana" shaped lock plate of the Louis XIV style
* Convex lock with a pointed tail that points somewhat downwards
* The lower border on the front half of the lock is very counter-curved
* Large rounded pan
* Convex and rounded swan-necked cock
* The slide for the upper jaw has lost its swell at its base which appears flat
* Also notice the very tip is elegantly curved inwards but appears thicker in design than earlier cocks
* Frizzen spring is fastened from the interior of the lockplate and is vertically aligned with frizzen pivot hole screw
* Frizzen spring does not hide the forward main mounting hole for side plate. This shows the lack of uniformity of some of these earlier locks.
* The frizzen spring display a faint arch
* Use of small rounded tumbler screw heads
* No external horizontal bridle

1693 Tulle, part of the marine order for the conversion lockplate,Archives Nationales de France, Marine, série G5, Vol. 203

Source:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Uh oh.....Are you guys discussing pre 1700 french guns? If so I'm way out of line. I'm suggesting the new Davis lock wouldn't be bad for the latter french guns, say 1730's and after. To me it would take less filing on this than the old TVLLE lock Davis sells. Never did like that old lock. Clunky frizzen and spring...never a real fast lock either....

 

The 1st French link refers to St Etienne locks. There are however, Tulle locks shown on the site in other articles, including flat plate locks.Aaahhh, I see you referenced it too, sorry.

 

[tg]

I have looked at the sources you mentioned and feel that the Davis with the slight concave in the plate is a bit closer to some of the 1720- 1740 locks in my opinion,I suppose we can agree to disagree about this and TVM guns till Hell freezes over...I do like the pic of that Davis lock Mowery 50 posted.

 

[benvenuto]

Sorry, maybe I should have started a new thread.
We started off discussing fusils in general, then took an excursion to the 1690's, then I came back to the 1730's with a bump :redface:

 

I have looked at the sources you mentioned and feel that the Davis with the slight concave in the plate is a bit closer to some of the 1720- 1740 locks in my opinion,I suppose we can agree to disagree about this and TVM guns till Hell freezes over...I do like the pic of that Davis lock Mowery 50 posted.

On the New France site there are several pictures of locks labeled as 1715+/- that have pretty darn straight lower lines--any curvature is very slight and easily accomodated by slight filing on the L&R lock. The Davis requires reworking of the frizzen, cock and perhaps the frizzen spring extension. You are right, we won't agree on this...the Davis works fine if reworked, but I am happy with my L&R...besides I "do" ca. 1750 French.