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Frizzen sole material

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What material has been used successfully with soles on frizzens. I used railroad banding quenched in water. I was surprised it didn’t produce sparks as it showered like the dickens during shaping. I’ve got a saws all blade as my next pick. Thought some of you might have some good advice on materials.
 
What material has been used successfully with soles on frizzens. I used railroad banding quenched in water. I was surprised it didn’t produce sparks as it showered like the dickens during shaping. I’ve got a saws all blade as my next pick. Thought some of you might have some good advice on materials.
I used to use E N 9 a scraper blade steel three small rivet's then run some stuff like easy flow bring up to red and quench then grind off any over lapping part plus the face . Generally got desired result ' but did have the use of a slit furnace thanks to the Scraper blade Factory owner .
Rudyard
 
What material has been used successfully with soles on frizzens. I used railroad banding quenched in water. I was surprised it didn’t produce sparks as it showered like the dickens during shaping. I’ve got a saws all blade as my next pick. Thought some of you might have some good advice on materials.

I use 1095 1/16 or 1/8 thick steel, shaped a little over sized before fitting.

Saw blades are usually 15N20 or 80CRV2 steel which is pretty good carbon steel. 5160 is good too if you can find it in thin cuts.

I TIG weld mine to the frizzen. I weld along the edges for a 360 weld.

You can also solder or braze them on. Brazing is probably more historically accurate. Or they were forged welded on by a blacksmith.

I’ve seen some original Spanish guns with the steel dovetailed to the face, very neatly done.
 
I use 1095 1/16 or 1/8 thick steel, shaped a little over sized before fitting.

Saw blades are usually 15N20 or 80CRV2 steel which is pretty good carbon steel. 5160 is good too if you can find it in thin cuts.

I TIG weld mine to the frizzen. I weld along the edges for a 360 weld.

You can also solder or braze them on. Brazing is probably more historically accurate. Or they were forged welded on by a blacksmith.

I’ve seen some original Spanish guns with the steel dovetailed to the face, very neatly done.
Thanks to all who have given advice on materials. I’ll proceed to the shop and as Teddy Rosevelt says, “ Hasten forward. Quickly now.”
 
I use pieces of old Disston worn out hand saw blades. Perfect thickness and they spark like crazy hardened either in water or light oil (depends on the base frizzen). No idea what steel it is, but works great.
Henry Diston Philadelphia originally a Sheffield maker branches in Australia & Canada good to know that about his saws . Shame to spoil a good saw if few use a hand saw today when I started work as a Chippy there where NO power saws it was all hand saws , Spear & Jackson & Sandvik where also popular saws .
Rudyard's incidental bit
 
Henry Diston Philadelphia originally a Sheffield maker branches in Australia & Canada good to know that about his saws . Shame to spoil a good saw if few use a hand saw today when I started work as a Chippy there where NO power saws it was all hand saws , Spear & Jackson & Sandvik where also popular saws .
Rudyard's incidental bit
One saw blade will do a LOT of frizzen facings. When I find one at a flea market or wherever that is just worn down to nubs, I think it's an ok sacrifice for frizzens, small springs etc. considering how many other functional hand saws I have of the same age.

These should all be straight high carbon steel, no weird alloys as I'm pretty sure all of mine are at least 80-100 years old. Couldn't tell you the alloy but they're some tough stuff and boy do they spark.

I would be leery of newer saw blades for this purpose largely because a lot of new saw blades - sawsalls, bandsaws etc are made of multiple steels that are electrowelded (or whatever the proper terminology is) of multiple steels and you're going to get different steels in different portions of each blade.
 
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One saw blade will do a LOT of frizzen facings. When I find one at a flea market or wherever that is just worn down to nubs, I think it's an ok sacrifice for frizzens, small springs etc. considering how many other functional hand saws I have of the same age.

These should all be straight high carbon steel, no weird alloys as I'm pretty sure all of mine are at least 80-100 years old. Couldn't tell you the alloy but they're some tough stuff and boy do they spark.

I would be leery of newer saw blades for this purpose largely because a lot of new saw blades - sawsalls, bandsaws etc are made of multiple steels that are electrowelded or whatever the proper terminology is and you're going to get different steels in different portions.

A blacksmith i know was telling me about hot forging 1095 file shavings to the facing of the frizzen, basically put the frizzen over coke and coals, once its at the right temp spring on the file shavings and some borax. An interesting theory one I’ll have to attempt to practice on.
 
One saw blade will do a LOT of frizzen facings. When I find one at a flea market or wherever that is just worn down to nubs, I think it's an ok sacrifice for frizzens, small springs etc. considering how many other functional hand saws I have of the same age.

These should all be straight high carbon steel, no weird alloys as I'm pretty sure all of mine are at least 80-100 years old. Couldn't tell you the alloy but they're some tough stuff and boy do they spark.

I would be leery of newer saw blades for this purpose largely because a lot of new saw blades - sawsalls, bandsaws etc are made of multiple steels that are electrowelded (or whatever the proper terminology is) of multiple steels and you're going to get different steels in different portions of each blade.
Agree they are generally good stuff, There where a lot of steels developed in old Sheffield I have a book on them but I get lost in the technical stuff . The Abbey Dale old forge where crucible steel was made is restored .Bengamin Huntsman A clock maker needed reliable steel for his clocks hence his study. There was Wootz steel from India was worth its worth its in gold favored prier to the Sheffield crucible steel . Quite how the Damascus steels fit in unsure but Ime particularly fond of' Damascus' barrels if I made no study of their swords .
Regards Rudyard
 
I just got done with assembling the frizzen soled with a saws all blade. It doesn’t spark too bad. It ain’t going to win the sparking contest, but I believe it to be true to shot.Much better than what it was producing.If I do it again, I’ll approach as Nick did on his. I’ll tig it. Prolly will silicon bronze and choose 1095 for sole material. I prolly should go back and read some of the articles in last years Muzzle Blasts magazine on flint lock performance. These darn flintlocks are as persnickety as a four barrel carb to get them to their best potential!! Thanks for sharing all your experience with them with me.
 
I just got done with assembling the frizzen soled with a saws all blade. It doesn’t spark too bad. It ain’t going to win the sparking contest, but I believe it to be true to shot.Much better than what it was producing.If I do it again, I’ll approach as Nick did on his. I’ll tig it. Prolly will silicon bronze and choose 1095 for sole material. I prolly should go back and read some of the articles in last years Muzzle Blasts magazine on flint lock performance. These darn flintlocks are as persnickety as a four barrel carb to get them to their best potential!! Thanks for sharing all your experience with them with me.

For TIG welding, you’ll want to make sure you normalize the frizzen first and clean it good before welding. I use a low amp short pulse until I’m 360 degrees all around. On the bottom and top I drill in a small rivet or two and weld over from the back. I check the area’s for cracks before i reharden. I oil quench for rehardening then temper the foot area blue. A good brine with hot water works well too. For filler material i use 7018 or flux core mig wire. Silicone bronze might have issues with the heat treating afterwards.

If your’e using an oxy acetylene torch, i pre-heat the part and use annealed welding rods and borax flux with a carburizing flame, neutral flames tend to not work well on casted frizzens. Oxidizing flames will crack the frizzen.
 
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Agree they are generally good stuff, There where a lot of steels developed in old Sheffield I have a book on them but I get lost in the technical stuff . The Abbey Dale old forge where crucible steel was made is restored .Bengamin Huntsman A clock maker needed reliable steel for his clocks hence his study. There was Wootz steel from India was worth its worth its in gold favored prier to the Sheffield crucible steel . Quite how the Damascus steels fit in unsure but Ime particularly fond of' Damascus' barrels if I made no study of their swords .
Regards Rudyard
Wootz steel is a crucible steel also. Huntsman merely re-invented crucible steel, I have read that some credit the Chinese as being first at making it before Indians, as many with other discoveries. What matters is the amount of carbon and how well it is dispersed and heat treated. The Indian Wootz steel, reportedly has been claimed to be found to contain a bit of vanadium, giving it superior properties over just iron and carbon. A face plate of deep or through case hardened steel should also work well, but a thin piece of 1095 should be about as good as any for the long haul and easiest to procure. Packing bands years back were supposedly of 1095.
 
I use pieces of old Disston worn out hand saw blades. Perfect thickness and they spark like crazy hardened either in water or light oil (depends on the base frizzen). No idea what steel it is, but works great.
Disston made their own steel. I've had about a dozen pre-1950s Disston saws analyzed, and accumulated analyses from 8-10 more done by other people. Judging by the analytical results, Disston was targeting a rather basic low-alloy steel somewhere around .75% carbon (range was .701-.87%, but if you throw out the highest and lowest the range is .742-.784% carbon). There were always traces of elements commonly used for alloying, but these were typically low (<.22% in most cases). From the analyses of British saws that I've seen, they were using similar steels.

If you don't want to butcher a saw, 1075 would be a good substitute.

Agree they are generally good stuff, There where a lot of steels developed in old Sheffield I have a book on them but I get lost in the technical stuff . The Abbey Dale old forge where crucible steel was made is restored .Bengamin Huntsman A clock maker needed reliable steel for his clocks hence his study.
I've played a bit with making crucible steel as an extension of my experiments in bloomery refinement and making shear steel/double-shear steel, but working on a small scale (relative to the set up at Abbeydale) it is difficult to get consistent results. In any case, it worked ok as a frizzen facing--but so does a decent piece of double-shear steel, and there is less work in producing it. Easiest is just re-casing the frizzen, but sometimes a frizzen is too worn for that.
 
I appreciate the specific information! I don't generally butcher them but my grandfather and subsequently my dad and uncle were carpenters and I've probably got 30 or 40 old hand saws. A couple were just too far gone for really saving and I use those for stuff like this - not a common thing. They really do spark exceptionally well, very comparable to Chris Laubach's locks which are the best sparking locks I've ever used (low carbon @ 1010 with very long case process).

In my experience, there's a middle of the road carbon and/or hardness level that is requisite to spark like a July 4th sparkler. Too hard and sure it will last forever, but you're not going to get a great spark shower. Too soft and you might get some sparks but till will be chewed up very shortly. Bottom line, the flint has to be able to tear some steel off the frizzen face in order to create sparks. Most people now never wear out a frizzen face anyway. I don't think that the more modified oil-hardening steels that most commercial locks utilize are particularly well-suited for this purpose; my best frizzens have always been either antiques with a good case or straight carbon steels (1070s, 1080s - I have used a lot of 1082 from Admiral Steel) with water quenching.
 
Best sparking matterial I've seen was depleting Uranium, sold by Russ Hamm if memory serves me correctly. Showered sparks like no other, however the consequences are not good (radioactive). Posted links below with further information, so folks can recognize it and dispose of it properly.

https://orau.org/health-physics-museum/collection/consumer/depleted-uranium/frizzen.html

https://www.nmlra.org/news/uraniumfrizzen-bevelbros

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/radioactive-frizzen.127495/
 
Eric, you've studied more original locks than I have. Have you ever run across an original frizzen with strings of slag? All of the original frizzens I've seen seem to have used very clean steel; the only way I've seen slag was to etch and use magnification. Even on NorthWest guns, the frizzen steel was very clean.

No offense meant by the term "butcher"--I adopted it years ago after an ALR member took me to task for "butchering" a pitchfork to make a new mainspring for my rifle. I've got a stash of saws that are saws until I need the steel (often to make a saw for a particular task, or a scraper).

After wearing out a couple frizzens on the repro Bess I used to play with, I did some experiments with various sole materials. Best results were consistently with plain steel with around .70-.85% carbon, whether the source of the steel was a saw blade, music wire welded on, my home-made crucible steel, or double-shear steel scraps from various experiments.
 
Here's a dumb question for those smarter than myself. If hard silver flows at about 1400F, and steel goes nonmagnetic at about 1400F, how does one harden a freshly soled frizzen that's been silver soldered? Is a lower quench temp ok, or is a different higher temp brazing material used, or something else entirely?
 

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