full stock Hawken flintlock

[galamb]

The above is mostly true of later rifles, which are the ones that have predominantly survived.

Prior to 1840 Walnut was readily available and cheap. After 1840 (at least in St. Louis) Maple was widely available and cheap.

I have specs on 12 J&S Hawken marked rifles - 6 of which are stocked in Walnut.

In contrast only 2 of the 38 S. Hawken marked rifles that I have specs on were made from Walnut and only 1 was noted to have "curly maple".

So IF you were trying to historically recreate a full stocked Hawken which might of have been originally built in flint it would most probably be:

A J&S style

have a Tennessee vice a beaver tail cheek piece

would have the early trigger guard (reminiscent of an English Fowler and not the flat grip that TOTW calls early)

would have a barrel somewhat greater than 36" with 38" being (typical) of a J&S rifle

would probably be stocked in Walnut

and if it was in fact an original flint, would probably have an English lock such as an Ashmore or a Ketland.

(however, their father, who taught both the boys rifle building was not "brand loyal" when it came to locks and he used "anything that was available" - if this was passed along, at least initially to his sons, it would not have been "out of character" to slap a Germanic lock on one of their rifles - but most Hawken followers would not support that theory and might tell you that you would never see a Germanic lock on Hawken flint, if one ever existed)

This is a rifle built by Jake and Sam's father about 1821. So I don't see it as a huge "stretch" that a Germanic flint lock would show up on a rifle either one of them built a mere 5 years later in St. Louis...

 

[Tom Compton]

That would be great. It's been about 30 years and 4 moves since I was there and my pics have long since been misplaced.
TC

 

[Captjoel]

Here are a few pictures and descriptions of a fullstock Hawken rifle that sold on this site a couple of years ago. Percussion. http://www.historicalarms.com/kentucky-rifles-for-sale/hawken-rifle-for-sale.html

 

[tenngun]

Hanson stated full stock Hawkens were .50cent cheaper then half stocks.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Lots of good reading here!
Fred

 

[galamb]

Here is a few more pics to maybe give you some direction as to how you would want your rifle to look if you are trying to go as correct as you can (at least based on circumstantial evidence).

Two of the earliest St. Louis Hawken rifles which are still in existence are a couple built in the mid-1830's - one for General Atcheson and one for Andrew Sublette.

They are both half stocked but are what most would recoginize as "Plains" style.

Since they were (already) building cap guns when they were developing that signature style, again, you have to kinda sorta guess "what" a full-stocked flint would have looked like "pre-1835".

Anyhow, here is a few fullstocked rifles:

 

[jfaldo]

Here is the full stock percussion in the Buffalo Bill Cody museum in Cody Wyoming.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Will post others. None very good but I hope they help.

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Obviously not all same rifle. Carved one is incredible.

 

[crockett]

Are you committed to a Hawkin? The better, more period correct flintlock choice would be a J.J. Henry English Pattern trade rifle or something similar. They were in 54 caliber but you could probably up it to 58 caliber without any trouble. The museum of the fur trade sells a booklet for around $10 on trade RIFLES and this book has full size patterns for stock AND PARTS on almost all the major trade rifles used in the area. Then you have something pc and you will be HAPPY. :grin:

 

[RonRC]

Here are some photos from the Cody Museum. You can see from the description that a few of the Hawken rifles and a Hawken barreled rifle are full stock:

But most are half stock, for example:

Ron

 

[LaBonte]

go to Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta give Jim a call first his contact info is listed here" http://www.tumblingriver.com/the-ranch/meet-the-hosts/the-gordons/

track of the wolf sells their full stocks with 42" barrels, so the rest if their parts are suspect.

Not sure where you got your info, but there are a number of extant originals built by the Hawken shop. There are a number of extant originals built by the Bros Hawken that have barrels longer than 38". The John Browning Hawken for instance has a 40" barrel. So while 32-38" is the most common length of barrel of original extant Hawkens (most of other lengths are not unknown especially amongst the earliest mountain rifles available for research.

IMO if you really want to do it "right" my suggestion (FWIW studying the Hawken Shop products since 1962 including up close and personal examination of 12 originals) - that of course does not make me an expert - for those talk to Don Stith or Louie Parker, both who have examined many originals in detail.

 

[nhmoose]

Lovely rifle I love how far forward the rear sight is. My sights have been extended further down the barrel as I grew older.

 

[galamb]

Yes, a 42" barrel would not be unheard of.

William Ashley's 66 cal Hawken, probably built by Sam "before" he got together with Jake in 1825 had a 42" barrel.

The Cody Museum has a J&S with a 44 3/4" barrel.

And the rifle built for Francis Parkman had a barrel that was 42 5/8".

Having said that, if I was going to build a full-stock (and it's on my list, just way down it), I think I would have a custom 36" to 38" tapered barrel made . That "seems" to be their "typical" barrel, although if you keep it over 30", it's tough for someone to say "it's not right".

But I echo some of the other comments with regards to Don Stith. His full stock "kit" is probably the "most correct" one on the market.

(Don's J&S full stock kit)

No, it doesn't look like the Track or Pecotonica offerings but maybe because it was patterned after an "actual" rifle and not a collection of features thrown into a blender.

 

[Khufu]

mr Stith says on hys site, full stock hawkens in flint are 36 with fixed breech and 2 lock bolts, like yhe original examples he has seen. infering he has seen one of these mythological beasts. even though yjere are those who claim to have seen bigfoot, I think he is a LOT more credible, and it is his site that led me to believe they existed.

 

[Khufu]

my commitment to a Hawken is based on the fact that the stock geometry and most importantly the triggerguard fit me like a glove, it is why my goto hunting rifle is a Lancaster school rifle in .45 fit and ballance are perfect for me. I love the looks of the Lehi rifles, but they do not fit me. as most of the largest game hunting I will be doing, elk, moose, and with good luck drawing on a tag, Grizzley, Will be from horse back and a 36" rifle would be perfect, and I like fullstock Rifles, so it goes back to Hawken.

 

[Khufu]

Prior to 1840 Walnut was readily available and cheap. After 1840 (at least in St. Louis) Maple was widely available and cheap.

I have specs on 12 J&S Hawken marked rifles - 6 of which are stocked in Walnut.

In contrast only 2 of the 38 S. Hawken marked rifles that I have specs on were made from Walnut and only 1 was noted to have "curly maple".

So IF you were trying to historically recreate a full stocked Hawken which might of have been originally built in flint it would most probably be:

A J&S style

have a Tennessee vice a beaver tail cheek piece

would have the early trigger guard (reminiscent of an English Fowler and not the flat grip that TOTW calls early)

would have a barrel somewhat greater than 36" with 38" being (typical) of a J&S rifle

would probably be stocked in Walnut

and if it was in fact an original flint, would probably have an English lock such as an Ashmore or a Ketland.

]

This is exactly what I have seen from extensive research, but alas, I have not seen an original.
I will keep looking for someone that has had hands on, and maybe photos, but I think it would be easier to find a unicorn. probably no pineapple finals and patch box more like a maryland rifle, but I can start whittling the stock.

 

[gunmaker43]

If your set on a "Hawken" then build what you like.
Those big bore's with crescent BP's make my shoulder hurt just lookin at 'em.
Another possibility is a large bore English full stock stalking rifle, no question of HC/PC on those beasts--and they sport a wide flat BP and stock geometry like a "modern" CF rifle, very good hunting weapons....Specially for Elk/ Bear....Tom

 

[crockett]

I'm going to throw out some questions that hopefully others can answer.
1. On a "Hawken" rifle. What exactly are we talking about? They made some pistols and in Ohio a rifle that is really more of a "Kentucky". In St. Louis I thought they made a few small caliber squirrel rifles used around the settlements. So when someone says "Hawken" I think what they are referring to are the heavy barrel types used on the Plains and in the Mountains.
2. On the plains/mountains type of Hawken- I didn't think any of them were Flintlocks. I'm not sure how many were full stocks. If there were full stocks did those rifles have a hooked breech?
3. Somewhere in the back of my mind is a "Hawken" with a plain drum but the cut in the lock indicates it could have been a flintlock converted to percussion. I can't recall that source or the caliber of that rifle.

 

[galamb]

I'll give my take on your questions.

1) I think when the majority of posts ask about a Hawken they are referring to either 1) the Plains/Mountain rifle built by the Hawken brother's or Sam alone (after Jake's death) or 2) one of the various "hawken's" built by Thompson Center et al.

Yes, Sam (for sure) had his own business "before" he got to St. Louis. He built rifles in Maryland and Ohio in the Maryland style taught to him by his father, a very talented builder in his own right.

There is little to no evidence that Jake ever built a rifle before he and Sam got together in 1825. He worked at Harper's Ferry but certainly was not (significant) enough that his name made many records - he could have had a job as mundane as affixing trigger guards.

Likewise, when he first went to St. Louis he worked for a fellow named Lakenan. There is many (possible wishful thinking) accounts that they were partners, however, the name of the shop was Lakenan and Co. - Jakes name only appears on a couple of invoices. If he was a "partner" I would assume his name would be on the shop - especially if he was a "sought out talented builder".

I suspect that any reference to a St. Louis Hawken rifle built before 1825 would be talking about one built by Sam alone.

Sam DID set up his own shop in St. Louis in the latter part of 1822 and had a fully running shop by the time Lakenan died and Jake "partnered up".

Sam in particular did build a significant number of smaller caliber, single keyed "local rifles" (also called Turkey or Squirrel rifles). I am not aware of any in existence that are marked J&S. He also built a couple of rifles with a drum system, not the typical snail breech.

Here is a drum style:

And one of his "Squirrel" rifles:

2) there is no surviving original example of a flintlock rifle built in the Mountain/Plains style. In fact there is no known St. Louis built rifle that is in "original" flintlock.

There is a much disputed Sam Hawken rifle in possession of the Smithsonian in which the lock plate was most probably flint when it started out. But again, there is no knowing if Sam built it as a flint and it was later converted or perhaps "Ol' Bob" had some sentimental connection to the lock and asked Sam to reuse it in building him a new rifle OR if someone else did the hatchet job on it at some later date.

This is one that some hold out as "proof" that there was flint Hawken. Being an S. Hawken it must have been built "after" 1849. I doubt it because it looks like the lockplate was cut for a snail but there is a drum there instead - I don't believe that Sam would have done such shoddy work. My belief is that he "originally" reconfigured a flint lock (for whatever reason), installed it on a snail breeched barrel and at some later point "someone" converted it to drum (due to damage or whatever).

Fullstock rifles remained popular and "in production" until Sam gave up building for good.

I had stats on 57 original Hawken rifles which may give a bit of (data). It was estimated, based on a couple industrial survey's that there could have been 3000 original Hawken's out there.

So while 57 is a small sample of that:

12 of the 57 were full stocks
13 of the 57 were S. Hawken "squirrel" rifles
the remaining 32 were half stocks.

I don't have any data on how many had hooked breeches, a detail not often commented on by whomever was writing up the description of the rifles.

This is a pic of a S. Hawken with a "fixed" breech. So probably safe to say that "either" is correct regardless of when it was built.

And I say that because this 1835 J&S utilized a hooked breech - so it wasn't something they "progressed" into using.

And that's enough blabbing on this post :grin:

 

[Khufu]

Excellent information, the triggerguards on the "squirel" guns look very much like a CVA mountain rifle guard. the "possible" flint gun looks like a good one to model on, drop looks close to what fits me.