Tim, first of all, I agree with all you said. I can't say I am as studied as you are on coyotes, but I too spend alot of time outdoors and have experienced as you have the disbelief of what is out there until someone else sees it also. Anyrate, I find it intersting, that humans are next in the evolution of coyote diet. One thing I find interesting to this, is there is no recorded history on wolves killing humans, it is supposed to be one of those old wives tales, passed down from generation to generation. The Romans almost substantiate this with their feeling on how the city of Rome was founded. Not saying in any way that wolves are coyotes though or vise versa. I too have seen some huge looking coyotes and when they were turned in for study, the proved to be the real deal and not a cross breed. Again Tim, I am just exchanging ideas, not disputing in any way what you said.
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Furbearer/varmint hunting?
- Thread starter bigbore442001
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Redwing, funny that you talk about the praire dogs as you do. There are some farmers around here that DO NOT want us to hunt coyotes. They said that the population of groundhogs has dropped considerably, since coyotes have established themselves. Now, I love to hunt groundhogs, but I won't do it until after Memorial Day. Even though, I know they are pests, other forms of wildlife depend on them as a food source and before Memorial Day, the young groundhogs are still depending on their mothers.
Outstanding bit of work, very good. We have coyotes every where and ranch dogs as well. The coyotes kill and eat dogs. Most sheep and dogs on open range are now protected by Lamas.
Anyway I have never seen a cross or Coy Dog. The only time I have heard of it was back east. The wolf and dog cross is real, thats another story.
Your reason why they do not cross makes sense. The off spring would be a Mule-Dog? The Desert Dog that lives in the west is a tough critter. The Legends say "A Coyote will howel over the last mans grave".. :thumbsup:
Anyway I have never seen a cross or Coy Dog. The only time I have heard of it was back east. The wolf and dog cross is real, thats another story.
Your reason why they do not cross makes sense. The off spring would be a Mule-Dog? The Desert Dog that lives in the west is a tough critter. The Legends say "A Coyote will howel over the last mans grave".. :thumbsup:
Dave K. you are my kind of varmint hunter. As far as coyotes killing off G'Hogs I doubt it. We have Rock Chucks they survive Lions, Wolves, Coyotes, Eagles and poor shots.
What they can't survive is total land use. They are also killed off by folks killing the breeders in March and April. Folks moving into rural areas and letting dogs run loose.
Dave we have P'Dogs on Public Range and on private range. Many of the towns on Public range do no harm.
Those of us who like to do 300 or 400 yard shooting on warm spring days try to protect our sport. This is what you do in Ohio. Did you ever shoot P'Dogs? :thumbsup:
What they can't survive is total land use. They are also killed off by folks killing the breeders in March and April. Folks moving into rural areas and letting dogs run loose.
Dave we have P'Dogs on Public Range and on private range. Many of the towns on Public range do no harm.
Those of us who like to do 300 or 400 yard shooting on warm spring days try to protect our sport. This is what you do in Ohio. Did you ever shoot P'Dogs? :thumbsup:
First let me say that I am not in any way implying that I believe anyone on this forum is of the type person that I previously addressed, particularly Paul (before) and Dave (now); it's just that we have to click on SOMEONE'S post in order to post a reply of our own. Again, I am not taking issue with what's been said/written, I guess I just get so frustrated with a very long memory about every time I've ever had to hear or read about this subject, and there have been many unpleasant times along the way in doing so.
Dave, there are in fact many many many verifiable reports of wolf and coyote attacks on human beings, in this country and elsewhere. That there ARE myths about there not being any IS the myth. Believe me, such attacks are the singular reason for wolves being exterminated in parts of the world. We are blessed with lives of relative (actually, extraordinary) peace and freedom from such "terrors" as have been borne by previous generations. And when our ancestors came to this country they also brought with them the sure and certain knowledge of what happens when they are not properly dealt with as well as how to properly deal with them. Granted, extermination is not necessarily something that many or most would favor, but it remains that when left unchecked, and when wild predators are no longer afraid of man, man is on the menu.
I will give you an example of some villages (3, I think?) in a province in India, none too long ago. The details escape me now, but over the course of a few years, primarily one village but as many as three, had night time killings of residents, mostly children in their sleep, with the bodies being found (when and if they were found) almost entirely eaten. Lions? No. Tigers? No. Bears? okay, now someone say, "Oh my!" Alright, no -- bears were not on the list... No, the villagers gave in to superstition that it was the work of demons, and if I recall properly they even killed one of their own in the false belief that he/she was the one the had displeased the devils, but the killings went on. If I remember correctly they even began to occur during the day.
Just before the killings ended a few years later, it was discovered that it was a small (very small) local pack of wolves responsible for all of it. Something like 72 or 73 people attacked, most of that number killed, and most of them eaten. By wolves.
Here in the U.S., particularly in the southwest, there ARE documented cases of coyotes attacking humans. Elsewhere here in North America, there ARE documented cases of humans being attacked by nearly every species of wolf but most frequently the grey wolf, which interestingly enough is the one species our brainiac political leaders seek to re-introduce to our areas. Re-introduce? Yeah, I can see it now... "Hello, what's your name?" "Why hello, my name is Little Red Ridinghood..." However, such documented case of coyote attacks are conveniently ignored by most of the media to the point that if you're not local to the incident, you won't know about it. I said "particularly" in the southwest, but most assuredly NOT RESTRICTED to that locale. Not three miles from me, a year or so ago, a 16-year-old high school varsity football player was cornered in the barn on his parents property. Nothing that he (from the barn) nor his mother (from outside the barn) did could dissuade the 3 coyotes that kept up the very uneasy siege. They (coyotes) were still afraid, but not TOO afraid. Only after the sheriff's deputies shot one of them did the others flee, and the whole incident ended.
And then there's my little story, I've posted it elsewhere many a time (perhaps too many times)....
Years back, I was cross country skiing. There is an area down back off the northwest side of the orchard that is comprised of 5 separate ravines (which eventually and rapidly become deep and steep) that eventually come together a ways to the west of the orchard, much in the manner that the fingers and thumb converge on a hand. Long story short, as I was skiing down the one ravine that I've long used, I came upon a story in the snow... A deer was just milling about, when suddenly the tracks turned and broke into a frantic run. A little further along, those tracks were joined by a set of coyote (red wolf) tracks coming in from the side, and a few yards further another set of coyote tracks from the other side. A dozen yards further, and the same thing repeated, with 4 coyotes now hot on the trail of the deer. All of this was VERY very fresh.
As I rounded the bend where two of the ravines (and the streams flowing within them) converged I saw the deer not far at all in front of me, a very thin wisp of steam still coming her (it was a large, mature, healthy doe - so much for "they only eat the old and the sick" B.S.!!!!!!) nose, but a pronounced volume of steam coming from the 2-3 inch hole in her belly. She was laying perpendicular to the trail she had run, on her right side, back toward me and her head arched back in my direction. The snow was heavily trampled over a circular area of about 30 foot radius, and stained crimson from her blood. I went closer and saw that she was brought down by at least two coyotes that had ambushed her from the front. Quite a trap those coyotes set for her... Anyways, upon closer inspection, the hole in her lower left belly revealed that the entire bowel was gone, torn out and eaten (nothing but blood in the snow, so where else did it go?), while she was still alive. I had no weapon on my person with which to put her out of her misery.
While I stood there just trying to take it all in, I was startled by the sound of a stick breaking off to my left (the ravine, which had been heading in a westerly direction, veered along a course heading northwesterly, therefore the sound was off to the west). The day had been overcast to begin with, and now it was heading toward sunset, and the shadows on that side of the ravine were already growing long. Nevertheless, even in that gloom, amidst the brush I saw several dark shapes moving back and forth, almost nervously. All the hair all over my body stood on end and taking one last looke at the carnage surrounding me I kicked and poled myself along the trail as fast as I could go. About another half mile on, at the point where there is only one broad shallow stream, there is a large clear opening in the woods, and the terrain has sloped down such that there is a crossing, perpendicular to the stream. The trail was more or less an "S-curve," and at this point is again heading westerly, with the crossing (mostly used by snowmobilers) runs north-south. There is still a good bit of climbing to get out of either side of the basin. I headed south, which would take me back toward the road. I was out of breath and my heart pounding so bad that it was snapping my head back and forth by the time I cleared the top of the basin. A few yards out into the open fields, and something told me to stop and get down. I dropped instantly.
What I saw next made for nigtmare material for a long time afterward. I am no stranger to the outdoors. I have trapped since the mid 1960's, fished since the early 1960's, hunted since the early 1970's... been out alone fro long stretches at a time. The only thing on God's green earth that honestly scares me is the Siberian Deer Ked... but that is another story. Anyhow, what turned my blood cold and literally skipped my heartbeat was the sight of one large and two smaller coyotes clearing the woods, running in what i call "hunt mode," wherein they run a few strides and then take a leap into the air to clear the snow, all the while they're in the air their head is turning to assess their surroundings, looking for their quarry. The snow that was spraying up had some small red balls of red-stained snow. These were the same coyotes that had brought down the deer... and now, they were tracking ME. They were only about maybe 25 yards out and would have crossed my path not too far out in front of me, and the lay of the land would have definitely allowed them to spot me. Well, shock turned to rage, and I stood up and bellowed as I swung the ski poles in the air.
The lead coyote (looked to be to be the alpha female) stopped and stood her ground, head somewhat lowered, staring at me. The other two, obviously younger ones, started to run away, but a glance at their leader and they nervously held their ground, anxiously shifting their eyes between me and the leader. Well, talk about a plan falling apart in a hurry.... mine, not hers...
I repeated the bellow-and-swing-my-useless-against-coyotes-ski-poles routine. The lead gripe (oh yes she was) still stood her ground, once again the two younger ones flinched and by now seemed ready to come unglued at the seams, but stood their ground, learning, learning, learning from that old matriarch... Well, hot rage cooled quickly to fear. I knew that if they attacked, I was toast. Or whatever you call human meat. Out of desperation, I started bellowing and skiing straight at them as fast as I could muster, off the trail in the knee-deep snow. The younger ones were about to turn inside out and pee themselves in the process, but that old gripe just stood her ground until I had closed the gap to half the distance, at which time she licked her chops in a face-saving gesture, turned about face and slowly loped off along her back trail. Those two younger ones disappeared in a vaopr trail.
The whole thing, from the time I cleared the rim of the basin to the time it was all over, was less than 2 minutes but it felt like an eternity. I never go skiing or snowshoeing or anything else that'll put me at a disadvantage in a coyote encounter unless I am armed with a gun, except when bowhunting, of course.
If you know me, then you've probably grown sick of hearing this and other tales of coyote encounters... like the pickers in the fall here at the apple orchard (92 acres here), unnerved by the presence of coyotes sitting there staring at them from very uncomfortable distances... coyotes loping along behind the tractors, not at all unlike their domestic cousins, but unlike our dogs, they are most unwelcome... or the coyotes peeing on our dog's house in broad daylight, with him IN IT... or catching them peeing, on our own home... I don't let our daughter take her run in the orchard anymore. Her running would, I am convinced, only provoke a predator response from them.
Tell the "wolves are so spiritual" crowd to shove that statistic from India up their bloomin' arses. My Good Lord... I've even had people - otherwise intelligent, HIGHLY educated and rational people - buy into the manure that it was the wolves that taught the Native Americans how to hunt, that "the wolf spirit" (yes I swear that's what they say!!!) came to the starving peoples and had pity on them, then showed them how to take the life of "brother deer" without offending him, etc. etc. etc.... To which I reply, "Oh really? ...And what were these people eating in the first place that they could live so many generations without the help of some wolf spirit, that they suddenly could no longer eat and were starving? And why did they then turn around AND KILL THE FREAKIN' WOLVES?!?!?!?!??!" MORONS... absolutely gullibullistic (yeah I know it's not a word but it just kinda rolls off the tongue when describing such folk) idiotic morons.
Look at cougars... When not hunted, YES, they DO start attacking and eating people. And the documentation is growing at an alarming rate. Even bears - right here in NY's Catskill Mountains, not 100 miles from NY City for goodness' sake... baby girl, taken from right in front of her mother, dragged away into the woods while still screaming in the bear's jaws, and then eaten... Tell the mother how bear attacks on people are "rare." I'm sure she'll agree that her baby being a statistic is an ordinary part of life.
Anyhow, I apologize for going so long, and almost certainly I've crossed posts with someone else since I started writing this whole thing. Sorry.
Dave, there are in fact many many many verifiable reports of wolf and coyote attacks on human beings, in this country and elsewhere. That there ARE myths about there not being any IS the myth. Believe me, such attacks are the singular reason for wolves being exterminated in parts of the world. We are blessed with lives of relative (actually, extraordinary) peace and freedom from such "terrors" as have been borne by previous generations. And when our ancestors came to this country they also brought with them the sure and certain knowledge of what happens when they are not properly dealt with as well as how to properly deal with them. Granted, extermination is not necessarily something that many or most would favor, but it remains that when left unchecked, and when wild predators are no longer afraid of man, man is on the menu.
I will give you an example of some villages (3, I think?) in a province in India, none too long ago. The details escape me now, but over the course of a few years, primarily one village but as many as three, had night time killings of residents, mostly children in their sleep, with the bodies being found (when and if they were found) almost entirely eaten. Lions? No. Tigers? No. Bears? okay, now someone say, "Oh my!" Alright, no -- bears were not on the list... No, the villagers gave in to superstition that it was the work of demons, and if I recall properly they even killed one of their own in the false belief that he/she was the one the had displeased the devils, but the killings went on. If I remember correctly they even began to occur during the day.
Just before the killings ended a few years later, it was discovered that it was a small (very small) local pack of wolves responsible for all of it. Something like 72 or 73 people attacked, most of that number killed, and most of them eaten. By wolves.
Here in the U.S., particularly in the southwest, there ARE documented cases of coyotes attacking humans. Elsewhere here in North America, there ARE documented cases of humans being attacked by nearly every species of wolf but most frequently the grey wolf, which interestingly enough is the one species our brainiac political leaders seek to re-introduce to our areas. Re-introduce? Yeah, I can see it now... "Hello, what's your name?" "Why hello, my name is Little Red Ridinghood..." However, such documented case of coyote attacks are conveniently ignored by most of the media to the point that if you're not local to the incident, you won't know about it. I said "particularly" in the southwest, but most assuredly NOT RESTRICTED to that locale. Not three miles from me, a year or so ago, a 16-year-old high school varsity football player was cornered in the barn on his parents property. Nothing that he (from the barn) nor his mother (from outside the barn) did could dissuade the 3 coyotes that kept up the very uneasy siege. They (coyotes) were still afraid, but not TOO afraid. Only after the sheriff's deputies shot one of them did the others flee, and the whole incident ended.
And then there's my little story, I've posted it elsewhere many a time (perhaps too many times)....
Years back, I was cross country skiing. There is an area down back off the northwest side of the orchard that is comprised of 5 separate ravines (which eventually and rapidly become deep and steep) that eventually come together a ways to the west of the orchard, much in the manner that the fingers and thumb converge on a hand. Long story short, as I was skiing down the one ravine that I've long used, I came upon a story in the snow... A deer was just milling about, when suddenly the tracks turned and broke into a frantic run. A little further along, those tracks were joined by a set of coyote (red wolf) tracks coming in from the side, and a few yards further another set of coyote tracks from the other side. A dozen yards further, and the same thing repeated, with 4 coyotes now hot on the trail of the deer. All of this was VERY very fresh.
As I rounded the bend where two of the ravines (and the streams flowing within them) converged I saw the deer not far at all in front of me, a very thin wisp of steam still coming her (it was a large, mature, healthy doe - so much for "they only eat the old and the sick" B.S.!!!!!!) nose, but a pronounced volume of steam coming from the 2-3 inch hole in her belly. She was laying perpendicular to the trail she had run, on her right side, back toward me and her head arched back in my direction. The snow was heavily trampled over a circular area of about 30 foot radius, and stained crimson from her blood. I went closer and saw that she was brought down by at least two coyotes that had ambushed her from the front. Quite a trap those coyotes set for her... Anyways, upon closer inspection, the hole in her lower left belly revealed that the entire bowel was gone, torn out and eaten (nothing but blood in the snow, so where else did it go?), while she was still alive. I had no weapon on my person with which to put her out of her misery.
While I stood there just trying to take it all in, I was startled by the sound of a stick breaking off to my left (the ravine, which had been heading in a westerly direction, veered along a course heading northwesterly, therefore the sound was off to the west). The day had been overcast to begin with, and now it was heading toward sunset, and the shadows on that side of the ravine were already growing long. Nevertheless, even in that gloom, amidst the brush I saw several dark shapes moving back and forth, almost nervously. All the hair all over my body stood on end and taking one last looke at the carnage surrounding me I kicked and poled myself along the trail as fast as I could go. About another half mile on, at the point where there is only one broad shallow stream, there is a large clear opening in the woods, and the terrain has sloped down such that there is a crossing, perpendicular to the stream. The trail was more or less an "S-curve," and at this point is again heading westerly, with the crossing (mostly used by snowmobilers) runs north-south. There is still a good bit of climbing to get out of either side of the basin. I headed south, which would take me back toward the road. I was out of breath and my heart pounding so bad that it was snapping my head back and forth by the time I cleared the top of the basin. A few yards out into the open fields, and something told me to stop and get down. I dropped instantly.
What I saw next made for nigtmare material for a long time afterward. I am no stranger to the outdoors. I have trapped since the mid 1960's, fished since the early 1960's, hunted since the early 1970's... been out alone fro long stretches at a time. The only thing on God's green earth that honestly scares me is the Siberian Deer Ked... but that is another story. Anyhow, what turned my blood cold and literally skipped my heartbeat was the sight of one large and two smaller coyotes clearing the woods, running in what i call "hunt mode," wherein they run a few strides and then take a leap into the air to clear the snow, all the while they're in the air their head is turning to assess their surroundings, looking for their quarry. The snow that was spraying up had some small red balls of red-stained snow. These were the same coyotes that had brought down the deer... and now, they were tracking ME. They were only about maybe 25 yards out and would have crossed my path not too far out in front of me, and the lay of the land would have definitely allowed them to spot me. Well, shock turned to rage, and I stood up and bellowed as I swung the ski poles in the air.
The lead coyote (looked to be to be the alpha female) stopped and stood her ground, head somewhat lowered, staring at me. The other two, obviously younger ones, started to run away, but a glance at their leader and they nervously held their ground, anxiously shifting their eyes between me and the leader. Well, talk about a plan falling apart in a hurry.... mine, not hers...
I repeated the bellow-and-swing-my-useless-against-coyotes-ski-poles routine. The lead gripe (oh yes she was) still stood her ground, once again the two younger ones flinched and by now seemed ready to come unglued at the seams, but stood their ground, learning, learning, learning from that old matriarch... Well, hot rage cooled quickly to fear. I knew that if they attacked, I was toast. Or whatever you call human meat. Out of desperation, I started bellowing and skiing straight at them as fast as I could muster, off the trail in the knee-deep snow. The younger ones were about to turn inside out and pee themselves in the process, but that old gripe just stood her ground until I had closed the gap to half the distance, at which time she licked her chops in a face-saving gesture, turned about face and slowly loped off along her back trail. Those two younger ones disappeared in a vaopr trail.
The whole thing, from the time I cleared the rim of the basin to the time it was all over, was less than 2 minutes but it felt like an eternity. I never go skiing or snowshoeing or anything else that'll put me at a disadvantage in a coyote encounter unless I am armed with a gun, except when bowhunting, of course.
If you know me, then you've probably grown sick of hearing this and other tales of coyote encounters... like the pickers in the fall here at the apple orchard (92 acres here), unnerved by the presence of coyotes sitting there staring at them from very uncomfortable distances... coyotes loping along behind the tractors, not at all unlike their domestic cousins, but unlike our dogs, they are most unwelcome... or the coyotes peeing on our dog's house in broad daylight, with him IN IT... or catching them peeing, on our own home... I don't let our daughter take her run in the orchard anymore. Her running would, I am convinced, only provoke a predator response from them.
Tell the "wolves are so spiritual" crowd to shove that statistic from India up their bloomin' arses. My Good Lord... I've even had people - otherwise intelligent, HIGHLY educated and rational people - buy into the manure that it was the wolves that taught the Native Americans how to hunt, that "the wolf spirit" (yes I swear that's what they say!!!) came to the starving peoples and had pity on them, then showed them how to take the life of "brother deer" without offending him, etc. etc. etc.... To which I reply, "Oh really? ...And what were these people eating in the first place that they could live so many generations without the help of some wolf spirit, that they suddenly could no longer eat and were starving? And why did they then turn around AND KILL THE FREAKIN' WOLVES?!?!?!?!??!" MORONS... absolutely gullibullistic (yeah I know it's not a word but it just kinda rolls off the tongue when describing such folk) idiotic morons.
Look at cougars... When not hunted, YES, they DO start attacking and eating people. And the documentation is growing at an alarming rate. Even bears - right here in NY's Catskill Mountains, not 100 miles from NY City for goodness' sake... baby girl, taken from right in front of her mother, dragged away into the woods while still screaming in the bear's jaws, and then eaten... Tell the mother how bear attacks on people are "rare." I'm sure she'll agree that her baby being a statistic is an ordinary part of life.
Anyhow, I apologize for going so long, and almost certainly I've crossed posts with someone else since I started writing this whole thing. Sorry.
Redwing, I have never shot p'dogs. We just have the g'hog variety. I nice evening is over looking a soy bean field that borders a creek. G'hogs love soy beans! On a good night, you may get 5, but usually it is none to 2. Being out in outdoors is more important to me.
Yes, coyotes will take g'hogs. They will dig them out. Many times, they will then use their dens for themselves.
Yes, coyotes will take g'hogs. They will dig them out. Many times, they will then use their dens for themselves.
P.S. - We have no cottontail rabbits left around here. In decades past, it was understood that there was a rhythm to the ebb and flow regarding the population cycle of the rabbits, but this is altogether different. For the past three years, there has been virtually NO cottontail sign of any kind. No tracks. No girdling the bark of the young grafted apple trees. No droppings. No damage to the garden. Okay, so it's not all bad, but it still remains that there are no rabbits. We have only seen one red fox in the past four years, and no grey fox, both of which were once plentiful. Their numbers go down as the coyote numbers go up. Now tell me that THAT'S called "balance of nature."
oh well, rant over, I have work to do...
oh well, rant over, I have work to do...
I am not just a hunter. I grew up running the wooded hills here in Mo during a time when it was 12 miles to the nearest grocery store. The woods were my play ground.
I generally take my wildlife info from watching them. There is no doubt about the hawks and eagles here. Both my father and I have had our hats knocked off bow hunting in full face camo by a little aggressive hawk that has become quite common here.
I watched a redtail working a fence line for a couple of hours one afternoon from a ladder stand. I turned my head to see what he was doing and got to see what air brakes really are. He was talons out at about 10 feet getting ready to strike me when I moved and he realized I was not something small clinging to the tree.
I used to talk a lot online with a gentleman in europe. He travels long distances there for a chance to photograph raptors in captivity. They have no ability to go out and see 30 buzzards, 20 hawks, three owls, and a couple of eagles in one afternoon. I fully understand how precious that is. Right now, at least here, the population is so thick that they sit on fences along roads watching for road kill in a lot of places. Somewhere reality has to trump emotion in managing the wildlife or things get way out of balance very quickly.
I had a coyote run by me so close that all I could see in the scope was hair. I had to throw him over a fence on the way out. I did not get him high enough until the third try, and I was a young pup then. The dog was taken by a fur buyer despite having a big hole thru the middle of the hide because he had never seen one that big before. I would guess him around 75 pounds.
Never under estimate the danger they represent. A friend had a pair of Great Pyrenese dogs that went over 200 pounds each. A pack almost completely skinned one of them and left him laying for dead fighting the second. The vet estimated over 400 bites. I am a good sized guy and three of me would have been in trouble against one of those dogs. The amount of damage he would have dealt out during the attack would have been incredible, but there were no coyote bodies. The pack that took him down could take anything that walks in this part of the country.
Don't jump on the folks still telling the Coydog story too hard. A lot of conservation people spread that story to a whole lot of folks over a long time period. It was BS in the beginning, but trusted people taught it as fact for too long. It may never completely go away. It is kind of like the extinct wood pecker we tried to tell folks we saw regularly for years. An older gentleman that lived alone on 160 acres swore they were some of the best eating there was.
Me, I try to be careful. I was shooting rats at the cabin this year. When I saw that they had hairy tails, I stopped until we could positively identify them as nothing rare or endangered before killing the rest of them. I am not some shoot everything wildman. Shoot every coyote you see anywhere and anytime it is legal to do so! You are not hurting anything unless you can get them to eat armadilloes! That is the current problem that is exploding here. The current BS story being spread by conservation is that limiting buck harvest to 4 points on one side is good for the herd. I hope that one doesn't take as long to be proven wrong.
A scrawny 5 point can breed all he wants and is completely safe doing so in the open at noon opening day along a public road. Any healthy decent buck better stay hidden during shooting light. This is supposed to help the herd. If you managed a herd of cattle that way, you would go broke very quickly!
I generally take my wildlife info from watching them. There is no doubt about the hawks and eagles here. Both my father and I have had our hats knocked off bow hunting in full face camo by a little aggressive hawk that has become quite common here.
I watched a redtail working a fence line for a couple of hours one afternoon from a ladder stand. I turned my head to see what he was doing and got to see what air brakes really are. He was talons out at about 10 feet getting ready to strike me when I moved and he realized I was not something small clinging to the tree.
I used to talk a lot online with a gentleman in europe. He travels long distances there for a chance to photograph raptors in captivity. They have no ability to go out and see 30 buzzards, 20 hawks, three owls, and a couple of eagles in one afternoon. I fully understand how precious that is. Right now, at least here, the population is so thick that they sit on fences along roads watching for road kill in a lot of places. Somewhere reality has to trump emotion in managing the wildlife or things get way out of balance very quickly.
I had a coyote run by me so close that all I could see in the scope was hair. I had to throw him over a fence on the way out. I did not get him high enough until the third try, and I was a young pup then. The dog was taken by a fur buyer despite having a big hole thru the middle of the hide because he had never seen one that big before. I would guess him around 75 pounds.
Never under estimate the danger they represent. A friend had a pair of Great Pyrenese dogs that went over 200 pounds each. A pack almost completely skinned one of them and left him laying for dead fighting the second. The vet estimated over 400 bites. I am a good sized guy and three of me would have been in trouble against one of those dogs. The amount of damage he would have dealt out during the attack would have been incredible, but there were no coyote bodies. The pack that took him down could take anything that walks in this part of the country.
Don't jump on the folks still telling the Coydog story too hard. A lot of conservation people spread that story to a whole lot of folks over a long time period. It was BS in the beginning, but trusted people taught it as fact for too long. It may never completely go away. It is kind of like the extinct wood pecker we tried to tell folks we saw regularly for years. An older gentleman that lived alone on 160 acres swore they were some of the best eating there was.
Me, I try to be careful. I was shooting rats at the cabin this year. When I saw that they had hairy tails, I stopped until we could positively identify them as nothing rare or endangered before killing the rest of them. I am not some shoot everything wildman. Shoot every coyote you see anywhere and anytime it is legal to do so! You are not hurting anything unless you can get them to eat armadilloes! That is the current problem that is exploding here. The current BS story being spread by conservation is that limiting buck harvest to 4 points on one side is good for the herd. I hope that one doesn't take as long to be proven wrong.
A scrawny 5 point can breed all he wants and is completely safe doing so in the open at noon opening day along a public road. Any healthy decent buck better stay hidden during shooting light. This is supposed to help the herd. If you managed a herd of cattle that way, you would go broke very quickly!
Tim, we have so few rabbits here, I would feel guilty taking one. The problem is no habitat. We have no fence rows left. The ground is farmed from pavement to pavement and no-till is killing the rest. At first glance, no-till sounds like a winning deal. But in reality, it is poisoning everthing that made it through the winter. The first year it was done here, ALL the bird nests in my yard died off and squirrels were flipping around dying in the yard. This took place within a week of "burning down" the corn field by me. I asked the neighbor farmer about it and showed it to him. He was concerned,because he paid a herbicide company to spray for him and he enjoyed wildlife too. It was the spray that killed the wildlife. Actually about 4 yrs later, my neighbor farmer died of mesotheloma(sp?)(cancer of the tissue surrounding the lungs) attributed to sprays in his case. I do know that there are cycles in the ways of wildlife populations. But, that also means that some animals need to survive for the cycle to function. IMHO, those who don't know, blame the loss of wildlife solely on predators. This is usually from those that make thier living from the land. It comes down to profits. It is cheaper to poison the ground then to work the ground several times in a growing season. If it is cheaper, it means more profit. Also the spraying allows them to farm more acreage since they aren't running over the same acreage multiple times. I can't blame the farmer, he is being told by the herbicide producers it is safe and a way to increase profits. Everyone wants to make more money, until their health is destroyed. But, all the profits in the world, won't buy it back. If there is habitat and healthy food sources, there will be wildlife.
Back in the early 8o's a buddy of mine had a "coy-dog" as a pet. He claimed it came from a litter from his cousins gripe. I don't recall what breed of dog she was. She was seen being bred in their back yard by a male coyote. At least that is how the story went.
That dog/yote was pretty worthless as a pet. It mostly hid from everybody and threatened anyone who tried to get close to it. Even the guy who owned it couldn't pet it. Everybody told him he should just shoot the dang thing.
By the way, it was small. Maybe 30 pounds soakin' wet.
Here in central Illinois, I have seen some pretty big coyotes. Seems like they run in cycles. You get a few years with lots of yotes. Then the rabbits etc. get scarce and the yotes disappear. A few years later there are lotsa bunnies and then the yotes come back. Round and round...
I imagine they take their share of deer fawns and I have seen deer run from coyotes. I have never seen coyotes chasing deer tho. I have seen feral dogs running deer on many occasions. I'd rather have the coyotes than the feral dogs in my hunting area.
On a couple of times I have been stalked by a coyote. I like to hunt from the ground and sit at the base of a tree for a while here and there. When I find a good sittin' tree I quietly clear the leaf litter away from the spot so I won't make noise while waiting. Both times I saw the yote shortly after clearing the leaves. I figger they heard me and thought I was a squirrel. They both ran away as soon as they saw I was a human.
Dogs, on the other hand, don't always run away. Sometimes they try and corner you. Sometimes they run off until you turn your back and then come after you. Dogs scare me worse than coyotes.
And if anyone needs another can of worms, I swear I saw a real, loose, wild cougar a year and a half ago right here in central Illinois. NO, it was not a German Shepherd or a deer or a bobcat... It was a cougar.
That dog/yote was pretty worthless as a pet. It mostly hid from everybody and threatened anyone who tried to get close to it. Even the guy who owned it couldn't pet it. Everybody told him he should just shoot the dang thing.
By the way, it was small. Maybe 30 pounds soakin' wet.
Here in central Illinois, I have seen some pretty big coyotes. Seems like they run in cycles. You get a few years with lots of yotes. Then the rabbits etc. get scarce and the yotes disappear. A few years later there are lotsa bunnies and then the yotes come back. Round and round...
I imagine they take their share of deer fawns and I have seen deer run from coyotes. I have never seen coyotes chasing deer tho. I have seen feral dogs running deer on many occasions. I'd rather have the coyotes than the feral dogs in my hunting area.
On a couple of times I have been stalked by a coyote. I like to hunt from the ground and sit at the base of a tree for a while here and there. When I find a good sittin' tree I quietly clear the leaf litter away from the spot so I won't make noise while waiting. Both times I saw the yote shortly after clearing the leaves. I figger they heard me and thought I was a squirrel. They both ran away as soon as they saw I was a human.
Dogs, on the other hand, don't always run away. Sometimes they try and corner you. Sometimes they run off until you turn your back and then come after you. Dogs scare me worse than coyotes.
And if anyone needs another can of worms, I swear I saw a real, loose, wild cougar a year and a half ago right here in central Illinois. NO, it was not a German Shepherd or a deer or a bobcat... It was a cougar.
Jethro, you'll get no scorn from me for saying that about the cats. But I've learned that I either keep my peace or the barbs will come from more places than I knew existed.
Like I've always said... The man with an experience is never at the mercy of the man with a theory. You know, and I know, but the vast majority doesn't know until such time as they feel that they won't look foolish by admitting or agreeing, much like the ridicule I got as a youngster about seeing "coyotes." Eventually, their numbers grew to the point that there was no denying the fact, and that feeling of foolishness went from being laid upon the back of those who said they saw, to those that said they weren't real. Problem with cats, though, is that they're numbers are never very high, they are great wanderers, and they are of a very secretive nature.
So, get ready to get grief for as long as you say you saw one.
Me? Well, I COULD say that the first one I ever saw was back in 1971... But no, not me... figments of the imagination, that's all.
And as for rabbits, they are virtually G-O-N-E. We have coyotes galore still.
Anyhow, I think this had better get back to hunting furbearers, what say y'all?
As for me, I'm still a'waitin' on RC to plug a few of those canines. I figure all he has to do is let a few line up in a row, and with that ol' smoothbore just touch off a shot and make about $100 getting all 3 at once.
Seriously, I would also use a small bore on a coyote. Yes they're tough, and they generally range 40 lbs. plus, but for goodness sake, I remember reading that .36 was regularly used on deer AND bear in the early days of this country, and that a .50 was considered a "big bore."
So, realistically, wouldn't a .32 be acceptable for coyote at appropriate ranges? Fur damage is for certain one major concern, but for that matter, the .17 Remington is largely considered best for the task, whereas the various .22 centerfires are even regarded as "cannons." So a .32??? I think maybe the fact that the round ball not being explosive or likely to expand much on a coyote would still cause little fur damage, but... ???
Just some thoughts...
oh yeah, a link for hat I said about the .17 Rem -- and I know it's not traditional muzzleloader...
[url] http://www.coyotegods.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php[/url]
Like I've always said... The man with an experience is never at the mercy of the man with a theory. You know, and I know, but the vast majority doesn't know until such time as they feel that they won't look foolish by admitting or agreeing, much like the ridicule I got as a youngster about seeing "coyotes." Eventually, their numbers grew to the point that there was no denying the fact, and that feeling of foolishness went from being laid upon the back of those who said they saw, to those that said they weren't real. Problem with cats, though, is that they're numbers are never very high, they are great wanderers, and they are of a very secretive nature.
So, get ready to get grief for as long as you say you saw one.
Me? Well, I COULD say that the first one I ever saw was back in 1971... But no, not me... figments of the imagination, that's all.
And as for rabbits, they are virtually G-O-N-E. We have coyotes galore still.
Anyhow, I think this had better get back to hunting furbearers, what say y'all?
As for me, I'm still a'waitin' on RC to plug a few of those canines. I figure all he has to do is let a few line up in a row, and with that ol' smoothbore just touch off a shot and make about $100 getting all 3 at once.
Seriously, I would also use a small bore on a coyote. Yes they're tough, and they generally range 40 lbs. plus, but for goodness sake, I remember reading that .36 was regularly used on deer AND bear in the early days of this country, and that a .50 was considered a "big bore."
So, realistically, wouldn't a .32 be acceptable for coyote at appropriate ranges? Fur damage is for certain one major concern, but for that matter, the .17 Remington is largely considered best for the task, whereas the various .22 centerfires are even regarded as "cannons." So a .32??? I think maybe the fact that the round ball not being explosive or likely to expand much on a coyote would still cause little fur damage, but... ???
Just some thoughts...
oh yeah, a link for hat I said about the .17 Rem -- and I know it's not traditional muzzleloader...
[url] http://www.coyotegods.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php[/url]
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paulvallandigham
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YOu have to remember that a .32 cal. round ball weighs only about as much as a .22 LR bullet! On a 30 lb. dog, you are going to be okay. On a 50 lb. dog, maybe not. Now if you were shooting a .32-20 center-fire carbine, it would work out fine. Or even a .25-20. Since getting a shot at any coyote is an opportunity, I would use what I have, and take the shot, whether its a .32 or my .50. However, I think a .36 cal. round ball would give you the added mass to take down a large dog better. If you are close enough to take a brain shot, then either caliber, .32 or .36 will do the job.
My factory 36 is rated at 60 grains of 3f under a patched round ball. I don't know about the speed using that load, but it is stepping right on out there. Using 30 grains of 3f, at 50 yards it completely splatters the ball on steel plate and leaves a 2 foot long line in the dirt under the target where the small fragments hit. It will dimple plate targets rated for 40 caliber pistol so bad that you will not want to use them with it. The only problem with a 50 pound coyote at 50 yards is if you hit big bone. If you do, there is going to be a BIG HOLE in the off side of the hide.
MercerLake
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:thumbsup: Well said, it is good to hear from someone who has experienced "being on the menu". It is a humbling frightning experience!
I've watched and video'd a large bear in eastern Oregon stalking a herd of elk (cows with young calves) until it was run off by a group of bulls. Bears take elk quite regularly in this area and we are not as large.
Coyotes on the coast and further east are "pack hunting" when running deer, something the game experts said was "no way", until they have since seen it also and have confirmed.
Ever so often somebody has a small dog "taken" from them at the end of the leash in the local community. Generally generates a call for "there ought to be a law" response from the town-folks.
We have cougar, bear, and coyotes very close to our house, my wife runs daily in the dunes(well armed) and sees one or another regularly.
People need not to be afraid but be aware of what is going on around them and deal with it in their own manner. :hmm:
I've watched and video'd a large bear in eastern Oregon stalking a herd of elk (cows with young calves) until it was run off by a group of bulls. Bears take elk quite regularly in this area and we are not as large.
Coyotes on the coast and further east are "pack hunting" when running deer, something the game experts said was "no way", until they have since seen it also and have confirmed.
Ever so often somebody has a small dog "taken" from them at the end of the leash in the local community. Generally generates a call for "there ought to be a law" response from the town-folks.
We have cougar, bear, and coyotes very close to our house, my wife runs daily in the dunes(well armed) and sees one or another regularly.
People need not to be afraid but be aware of what is going on around them and deal with it in their own manner. :hmm:
Guest
For the consideration of the group - not picking on you -- just adding information.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/wildlife/notes/pdf/coyote.pdf
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/wildlife/notes/pdf/coyote.pdf
First I have read of a confirmed link to gray wolves.
Dad and I saw a solid white female running with two pups a couple of summers back in Chariton county Mo.
Don't sweat the cougar sighting. I had a full grown cat at about 50 yards a couple of years ago in Chariton County. I was hunting 180 acres on the hill just off the river bottoms north of Dalton. That close to the river bottoms, I figured it was passing thru. I could have killed it, since I watched it from a ladder stand during deer season, but I just watched it until it was out of sight.
Dad and I saw a solid white female running with two pups a couple of summers back in Chariton county Mo.
Don't sweat the cougar sighting. I had a full grown cat at about 50 yards a couple of years ago in Chariton County. I was hunting 180 acres on the hill just off the river bottoms north of Dalton. That close to the river bottoms, I figured it was passing thru. I could have killed it, since I watched it from a ladder stand during deer season, but I just watched it until it was out of sight.
paulvallandigham
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Deaconjo: Here in Illinois, we have a lot more grassland, than hills, and forests. The primary food for coyote is the lowly field mouse, or " meadow vole". A single acre of grass can support 2500 mice. Find a food source for mice, and you will also find hawks, owls, and coyote, as well as feral cats hunting there.
Our coyote supplement their diet with road kill anything, deer guts , and dead deer from any cause, rabbits, pheasants, quail, other song birds, eggs, from ground laying bird species, 13 stripe squirrels, moles, feral cats, kittens, pups, and small domestic dogs when they get desperate. An examination of a coyote's scat is always instructive, and I encourage all hunters to do so.
Our coyotes don't get as big, generally, as those described in Pa. 35 lbs. for males, and 25 lbs. for females would be more normal. There are exceptions, and the one brought into the deer check station back in 1968 at Valmeyer weighed more than 40 lbs. I don't recall the exact weight, but the man had a full body mount made of the animal, which he shot out his back door with a 20 ga. shotgun, as it was standing in his driveway. Everyone who saw the coyote estimated its weight at 75 lbs. or greater, and were shocked to learn it didn't come close to that weight. Here in the flatlands, coyote cover about 20 miles a day just finding food, so they don't put on a lot of weight, or fat. Because they eat the same foods that fox do, they out eat them. Fox will only be able to cover about 10 miles a day.
Our coyote supplement their diet with road kill anything, deer guts , and dead deer from any cause, rabbits, pheasants, quail, other song birds, eggs, from ground laying bird species, 13 stripe squirrels, moles, feral cats, kittens, pups, and small domestic dogs when they get desperate. An examination of a coyote's scat is always instructive, and I encourage all hunters to do so.
Our coyotes don't get as big, generally, as those described in Pa. 35 lbs. for males, and 25 lbs. for females would be more normal. There are exceptions, and the one brought into the deer check station back in 1968 at Valmeyer weighed more than 40 lbs. I don't recall the exact weight, but the man had a full body mount made of the animal, which he shot out his back door with a 20 ga. shotgun, as it was standing in his driveway. Everyone who saw the coyote estimated its weight at 75 lbs. or greater, and were shocked to learn it didn't come close to that weight. Here in the flatlands, coyote cover about 20 miles a day just finding food, so they don't put on a lot of weight, or fat. Because they eat the same foods that fox do, they out eat them. Fox will only be able to cover about 10 miles a day.
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