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:agree: completely fellows it seems to be something going on all over the country! We need to open our arms wide to all comers, even inliners. Heck some of us traditionalists were inliners not that long ago. I've seen dozens get bit by the flint bug in the last 10 months since I joined this forum!

As I've said to some of the old timers in my club if we don't rub elbows with them how are we ever going to convert them!

YMH&OS, :redthumb:
Chuck
 
I understand what your saying, but I think we need to look at this another way.

We traditonalist are an elite group, no different from any other elite group. If you want to become one of us, then buy or build the proper firearms, tools, and equipment.

A person who buys a modern inline and camo clothing, and all the things they think they need to be comfortable on the hunt, can surely spend the same amount of money to become a traditionalist.

I will not turn anyone away who is willing to learn the traditional ways, but I'm not going to let them in my camp, or on my traditional firing line with a modern inline. That would be a slap in the face of all those who chose to walk the traditional path... :peace:
 
I will not turn anyone away who is willing to learn the traditional ways, but I'm not going to let them in my camp, or on my traditional firing line with a modern inline. That would be a slap in the face of all those who chose to walk the traditional path... :peace:

Ohio Joe,.... I agree with you, many muzzleloader "clubs" git new members who don't even own a muzzleloader and are jest "visitors" (the same happens at "rendezvous").

All "visitors" are always welcome to shoot any of my traditional muzzleloaders, or even borrow one if they want to join in the "events" for their first time!!

Never have we allowed centerfires into our "traditional camps" with the hopes of convert'n them to traditional muzzleloaders, and I don't think modern inlines are any more "traditional" then centerfires.

A "very wise man" once said,.... "You don't allow Hondas into a "Harley Davidson club"!! :D

"Any and all" inliner's are always welcome into my "traditional" camp, but,.... they may not bring ther inline rifle with them!!

I would extend the same "courtesy" to a modern inline camp (if they had one)!!

Thet makes me wonder,.... do modern inliner's have a "club"???? ::

YMHS
rollingb
 
the teen agers are in real short supply but that is in part due to the many demands we put on them they don't have a whole lot of time left over.


I agree I have a son and daughter, both are into sports, music at school, scouting, and all of the day to day stuff that goes with being 12 or 13 years old, but both are also into black powder and have shot C&B revolvers, percussion, flintlocks, and even an inline, as well as a lot of cartridge guns.

My daughter is seriously into the flinter that I got her and always asks to take a friend to the range. Strangely the girls that she invites all seem to like shooting the flinters best, hopefully some of them will develop a real interest in the sport and stay with it.

By the way Woody, I admire what you did for one lucky kid. I'm sure he'll never forget your kindness, and somehow I think that he may duplicate your gesture in the future. I have a loaner flintlock that I keep around for my kids' friends when we go to the range, maybe I'll pass it on as you did some day if I run across an enthusiastic recipient.
 
I would extend the same "courtesy" to a modern inline camp (if they had one)!!

Thet makes me wonder,.... do modern inliner's have a "club"???? ::

YMHS
rollingb



The answer to your question is "YES". Those modern inliners ARE a club...great for baseball, clubbin' unwanted guest...golf...you get the picture!
 
I would extend the same "courtesy" to a modern inline camp (if they had one)!!

Thet makes me wonder,.... do modern inliner's have a "club"???? ::

YMHS
rollingb



The answer to your question is "YES". Those modern inliners ARE a club...great for baseball, clubbin' unwanted guest...golf...you get the picture!

BLAHMAN,.... :haha: Welllll,.... thet's really not what I meant!! :haha:

Honestly tho,.... I wonder why modern inliner's don't start some kind of "Association" of ther own. They'd probably git more shoot'n done with various comprtitions, be able to visit with "like minded" folks, and lobby for "special" modern muzzleloading seasons of ther own.

As many modern muzzleloaders as ther are,.... they could all be one big "happy family" if they formed ther own "club". :haha:

YMHS
rollingb
 
Very, very good topic here.

Starts with the values that guide the home environment in my opinion.

I am not what any one call a "Traditionalist" or "Elitist" in anything.
I have also resigned the fact that I don't and likely won't ever have a place in "traditional" muzzleloading.
Nevertheless, I value and support traditional practices to include muzzleloading.

The second amendment, along with the rest of our constitution are being neglected and are under siege by those what would undermine that core aspects that shape and guide our nation.

With the influx of "technology" and the endless river of "choice" in the average persons home over the past several decades, it not really that surprising that many traditional values have suffered.

But, in many aspects I am seeing things come full circle in many ways. So there is hope.

Shooting sports and it's attributes need to be taught in the home along with more traditional core values.

Otherwise then the society in which we live will teach our children. And when that happens, they will have no memory of what their forefathers and mothers stood for and sacrificed for their future.

:imo:
 
Ohio Joe,

but I'm not going to let them in my camp, or on my traditional firing line with a modern inline.

First let me say I agree with your comment. Rules are rules and all participants should be willing to compete within the framework of the event.

Have you ever seen a person try to enter a traditional event with an inline? Wouldn't they be refused entry based upon the guidelines of the match?

Yes!!.... We've had fellas show up at our "traditional muzzleloader shoots" with modern inlines, and breechloading Sharps. The "roundball only rule" was aplied each time.

YMHS
rollingb
 
I see it every summer at camp running a Shooting Sports program. They boys use .22 single shots to learn on. A couple of times a week, depending on staffing, we break out the front-stuffers and give a short history lesson, and let the boys (and adults) shoot a few rounds. There's ALWAYS a big group to try out the MLs, including some of the moms that are in camp. There's not a week goes by that some dad, after shooting BP for the first time, picks up my "how to buy it" sheet and at least a few times a summer heads into town to get one of his own to "try out" while he's got an "expert" handy.

Couple of good stories... My first year doing this, inexperienced, a little unsure, and I get a group of 5 female Venture Scouts wanting to try shooting for the first time. They pick the day we're shooting the MLs to visit the range. Light loads all around (40gr pyrodex, prb) and every one of them hit paper. One of the young ladies later joined the camp staff and for the last two summers spends almost all of her free time at the range... shooting and instructing BP. She don't know it yet, but this year she's getting her own kit- I've got a CVA bobcat, bag, horn, etc. One of the other girls got herself addicted to hawk throwing, and I've got a nice one for her I'm finishing up a handle for now.

Second... Same camp, Fun with Son Cub Scout weekend. We do a demo of BP, and get the parents to shoot. Suburban-type Cubbie Mom, about 4'nothing and not too sure about guns but has her son saying "try it mom, try it" and bouncing around. TO her credit, scared as she was, she came up and shakingly said "If it won't hurt, I'll try it". Told her I wouldn't feel a thing, and handed her the rifle, helped her steady it, and she hits the bull dead-freaking center, only she doesn't see it thru the smoke. She's standing waiting for the smoke to clear when her son starts yelling about the bulls eye shot "HIS MOM" got. Son has since been back to camp and is STILL talking about his mom's bullseye, and how mom convinced dad to join a range so they could go out shooting.

The future is out there. You may not see it, but it's there. This is the group that may not get out to a range every week, or even every month, but they are a quiet support in the background- shooting when and where they can and loving every rare minute they get away from the daily grind.

:m2c:
vic
 
Have you ever seen a person try to enter a traditional event with an inline? Wouldn't they be refused entry based upon the guidelines of the match?

Yes, Old Salt, it has happened... Just as recent as last year during one of our shoots. Feller shows up with his new scoped inline, doesn't want to enter the match, but wants to shoot his new rifle.

I explained to him that this particular Sunday and one Sunday a month is reserved for the Traditional Muzzleloading shooters only... I offered him the use of a spare muzzleloader I carry to allow folks a taste of traditional muzzleloading...

His answer to me was to laugh and point out that he knew the muzzleloading schedule and he had a Cabelas Hawken at home. He'd of brought it with him if he wanted to enter the match... So he left p'oed at me and the club...

Now if that isn't crossing the line, I don't know what is?

Then, this same individual shows up at the general membership meeting in January, complaining how he should be allowed to shoot his inline during the monthly muzzleloading match.

Again it was explained to him that it is a traditional muzzleloading match. We further told him that if he and anyone else who wanted to meet on certain dates that are not taken and shoot inlines, he was more then welcome to organize such a thing.

His answer was. "Why should I have to organize it. The club should have to. If your going to organize something for the traditionalist then you should do the same for the modern muzzleloading shooter."

Someone spoke up before me and let him know that the traditionalist organized this monthly shoot with the club's blessing and if they wanted to do likewise, they need to step up and do it...

This kind of infringement goes on all the time as I see it... It has to end somewhere...

Sorry for going on, Old Salt... :peace:
 
I'm afraid we will always have some people who go against the flow, Joe. It's their nature to try and stir up a controversy.

What I said in an earlier post about rubbing elbows with them. I didn't mean to let them shoot in a match for Real Muzzleloading guns, but to let them associate with the club and form there own matches. Some will come around to traditional weapons and some won't. But we can't convert em if we treat em like some underclass citizen. LOL! :winking:

Just like when Claude asked if we wanted him to do away with the modern section of the forum. If I remember correctly there was a strong debate (read argument) going on about this subject. We almost 100% said no cause some of the Traditionalists could remember being converted not too long before then!

And for not ever being someone in Traditional Muzzleloading as Tahquamenon said. I wouldn't think that if I were you. You just may yet make a big splash in the Traditionalist world. Opportunities are just around the corner, aren't they RollinB and Ohio Joe! :winking:

YMH&OS, :redthumb:
Chuck
 
Starts with the values that guide the home environment in my opinion.

I agree with you that it starts in the home.
I will also say that kids have NOT changed over time. Paernts HAVE!

Look at the single parent homes in todays society.
Only thing changed about kids is that they are stuned ,confused , feel unwanted, neglected, and no sence of purpose. Wandering around in a confused world.
If we let society set the standard as to how our kids are brought up then we are in real trouble.

Woody
 
As I stated before, my "traditional camp" is always open to those who are interested in tradition!! :thumbsup:

YMHS
rollingb
 
Few people want tradition. They hate anything that would indicate a preset role, hence the "female knights" in the sca groups...
 
I guess what I'm say'n is,.... anybuddy interested in modern inlines will have better luck talk'n to the "clerk" at the "inline store", 'cause I don't know nuthin 'bout'em!! :haha:

YMHS
rollingb
 
rollingb, Ohio Joe,

the problem's much bigger than who's shooting what. be it an inline, percussion, flint heck even snap ahunce or matchlock...who cares!! the point is if we as BP shooters don't open up or litttle closed societies and introduce what we do to people who have no experience or very little experience with BP, we fail. I don't know about all your clubs, but I look around mine and the ones that I'm familiar with and the average median age is probably around 58. The point is the kids and parents need to be exposed to black powder shooting, with whatever style of ignition we chose to show them, and IF they decide to pursue BP, great, they can choose and settle into whatever they want.
Sorry Ohio Joe, but throwing around titles like "elitist"
and "traditionlists" sends off the wrong message to those people who may not know any better, and if its taken wrong they won't give damn to find out what its all about. In the end we just ran 'em off.
Run the camps as you want them, make the range and club rules as you see fit. No one is saying you have to allow the inline shooters in on a traditional shoot if thats what the rules are.
Remember this, if ALL BLACK POWDER shooters stand together we can influence a hell of a lot more government agencies and organizations who are opposed to shooting in general. and reach the new people who might be genuinely interested in learning and participating in BP shooting sports.

Sorry guys I'll put my soap box away, now.

Smokeydays
 
The point is the kids and parents need to be exposed to black powder shooting, with whatever style of ignition we chose to show them, and IF they decide to pursue BP, great, they can choose and settle into whatever they want.

I agree,.... but see'ns how traditional muzzleloaders is all I know, then thet's what I'll talk to the "pilgrim" about.

I'm guess'n Ohio Joe is jest as "dumb" 'bout inlines, as I am!!

I hear thet the NMLRA has endorsed inlines, I'm curious as to how much ther membership has grown since do'n so?? (I'm plum serious with this question, and if for some reason sumbuddy thinks I'm "attack'n" the NMLRA,.... well, I ain't! ) :nono: :rolleyes:

YMHS
rollingb
 
Rollingb,

Yes, I don't know nothin' about modern inlines except they ain't traditional at all no matter who makes the argument that they are! :no:

When the young ones see their dad, uncle, whoever, shooting one of these inlines, this becomes their impression of a muzzleloader and they grow up thinking it is a traditional muzzleloader... What happens is we lose the future of this sport when this happens as I see it...

About the NMLRA? Being a long time member, I see they have lost membership since the acceptence of inlines. Membership has certainly not grown.

This goes back to my first post of what I said here in this thread...

An organization must come forward who is willing to save this traditional heritage, and I believe they are a comin'! :thumbsup:
 
OK, time for me to squeak out my opinion from the peanut gallery. I think that smokeydays has hit the nail on the head. Here is my perspective:

thirtyish years ago, the nation had a surge of interest in all things colonial due to the bicentenial. The interest in muzzleloading seemed to mushroom at about that time. Well, my father was an avid outdoorsman and he got interested. Being military, we moved a bit, but we were able to get some muzzleloader kits (the ubiquitious CVA guns as well as some higher quality stuff) to assemble and we had a grand time working on them. No, they were not all period correct, but they were mostly traditional firearms. We moved back to the states, the guns get packaged away and life goes on. Dad dies and years later I get the guns that I thought were lost to the ages. All that I knew of muzzleloading at that point (a couple of years ago) was that I helped Dad build a couple. Well, I stored them away and they would occasionally creep out - only to be stored again. This year, I finally scraped up all of the odds and ends needed to shoot them (not exactly like picking up a box of shells there...) and a buddy and I shot them off his back porch. His knowledge of black powder is that they sold such guns at Wal Mart... We both agree that if you are going to shoot black powder, then the traditional type guns (not necessarily period correct, but rather sidelocks) are the way to go. The inlines are OK, but not our cup of tea. We harbor no ill will towards inline shooters, but don't really get it.

Flash forward a bit. If I had not been reading this forum for a couple of months, this thread would leave me DEAD COLD about the sport of muzzleloading. The traditional guys really enjoy reliving the old ways of doing things. More power to you! The problem that I see is that there is a HUGE animosity agains the inline guys.

A lot of traditional guys have such contempt for inlines that they would ostracize them completely. The argument is that they are not in the spirit of traditional guns. Hogwash. They are a development, pure and simple. Some of the traditional guys even look down on the caplock guys. Almost all seem to disparage Pyrodex or any other non-black powder as blasphemy.

The reality is that inlines can be a transitional weapon. If someone was sort of interested in black powder, but not sure that they want to buy all of the stuff to do it, the prepackaged inlines make it SOOO easy. Lets look at the math of it. At Wal Mart, you can buy a complete inline set - gun, powder, bullets, lube, etc for about $185. Complete instructions are included and since the gun looks a lot like the bolt action rifle that Joe Sixpack was using, it is not that difficult to get into the groove of shooting it.

Compare a sidelock. The synthetic Bobcats were the cheap entry guns. Wal Mart had them for $60ish, BUT you had to know that they were there and ask for them. The wood stock version went for $100ish. Then you had to find someone with a clue that knew where they were in the back. After a half hour, you may get lucky and have one come out. Now you have to buy powder ($17), bullets ($20), lube ($8), a cleaning kit to get the jag and bore brush ($15), bore solvent ($10) and some caps ($6). Now your getting close. If you don't have guidance locally, you search the web and lo and behold, you find[url] muzzleloadingforum.com[/url]! Here you see that a lot of guys truly despise the CVA guns. These guns are not period correct, so another pack of guys look down their noses at you. No one near you carries true black powder since the feds have made it such a PITA for businesses to stock it, so yet another pack look down on you for shooting pyrodex and all but admonish you for not seeking out real black powder - even if you have to buy 25lbs of it and have it delivered from across the US. It looks like you are fast becoming the unloved redheaded stepchild. Sure makes sense at that point to take it all back and just get an inline, doesn't it? Heck, none of your buddies will know that it is different unless they pull it out of the rack.

My point is this, if you want to be as period correct as you humanly can be, then go for it! Just don't look down your nose at someone because they think that donning buckskins and carrying a rocklock out into the frost is not for them. Caplocks, inlines, thinsulate, goretex, etc are OK. Like I said, I like the traditional guns, but I am not going to shun someone because they like a stainless and synthetic inline. Heck, I still wear my combat boots with my Levis when I go hunt. I don't get the whole buckskin thing, nor do I get the Mossy Oak Breakup thing. If I had not been on this board being a bit curious, I might just have stuck the guns back into storage thinking of them as a quaint reminder of my departed father rather than getting another person excited and into the sport. When you consider that I did not even buy a hunting license, nor set foot into the woods on a hunt this year, I think that my "recruiting" rate is pretty good. My buddy is so excited that he shot off all the powder that he had Sunday after church. If I had not shared my enthusiasm with him, he would never had fired one of these. Would he have done that if I expressed the list of negativity I oulined above? I think not...

I am off the soap box. Feel free to load up a magnum charge and fire away at my opinion.
 
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rollingb,
I don't know if you consider percussion shooter, traditional or not. I know some around here that would rather lump them in with inlines and cartridge fire. Myself I prefer to shoot percusion cap...at this time. As time marches on I find myself becoming more selective about what I want to shoot, and who knows maybe someday I'll turn to a flintlock if one comes my way at a reasonable price. But to those elitist, I consider it their loss if they are so quick to condem others for what they decide to shoot. My brother inlaw shoots one of those inlines. I looked at the guts of it, decided I didn't want anything to do with it! I'm not going to condem the man for owning it though. It just ain't my cup of tea.
In some circles I have seen factory built guns (TC's Lymans, Traditions etc.) looked upon with disdain. they aren't traditional or even good replicas. I shoot what I can afford! They can accept me and my guns if they want, that's totally up to them.

As to the NMLRA and inlines I can't adequetly respond to that. I just don't have enough info on it. BUT IN MY OPINION, There's a glut of them out there, and you can't ignore them. So you might as well try to regulate what they do with them.

Smokeydays
 
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